Do we have any plumbers in the house? Need some help with a well filtration quote

Looks like the well filtration system in our house has taken a dump and needs replacing. I guess it would have helped if the PO had maintained it.

First plumber just dropped off a quote that was a bit HFM? for my liking, using EasyWater components (No-Salt Conditioner/Iron Shield+/Acid Shield). Is this stuff any good? Internet seems to have opinions, not facts.

We currently have a three tank system - air eliminator tank, and a Lancaster Water treatment two tank system (one being an Ironsoft water softener, the other one being a filter/neutralizer as far as I understand the system). My understanding is that due to the complete lack of maintenance, the system is basically contaminated with a bunch of deposits (which are admittedly very visible in the clear lines in the system) and not really worth rescuing.

I don't mind paying good money for good stuff, but my wife and I are a little apprehensive that on account of having a somewhat nicer house for the area, we might be getting quoted the gold-plated prices and the stuff that's recommended is a little over the top.

Again I'm not up to speed on plumbing prices and there is not much competition out here. Just trying to make sure their quote isn't that far off and that the stuff they're suggesting is actually worth having.

The plumber was able to provide good reasoning for the parts he recommended and I appreciate that, I'm just trying to make sure I'm in agreement (and am also trying to get a second quote, but that's where the competition thing comes in).

Edit: Water quality is important to me as I'm drinking a ton of high quality tea, so I'm not trying to save the last buck on the system here.

Do away with the whole house system beyond a sediment filter. Put a quality filter on the kitchen sink for cooking and tea. Your toilet doesn't care what the water tastes like. 

You also might taste the water as it comes out of the ground. Some well water is like the nectar of the gods. My mother uses a couple of Brita pitchers for drinking water and tea/coffee. They work very well. 

Reminds me that I need to get my system looked at. My shower is getting dyed orange by the water (iron  content methinks).

In reply to Toyman01 :

The water unfortunately needs some treatment even for washing/showering. At the very least to get rid of the sulfur smell and some additional filtering. And a UV light to get rid of the traces of coliform bacteria (:/).

In reply to Apexcarver :

Same here, but that's partially because of the messed up softener. We've got a fair amount of iron deposits due to the PO never running something like iron-out through the softener.

Before you do anything you need to have your water tested to see what kind of system you really need. Every well is different. NTL labs does a great job: https://watercheck.com/collections/well-water-tests/products/water-check

I highly recommend getting a couple quotes from independent local water treatment dealers (NOT Culligan or kinetico). Plumbers rarely have the experience and expertise to properly spec and set up a system to your needs. A plumber can hook up the pipes but they typically don't know the science behind the equipment. The water treatment dealer will be able to facilitate water testing as well. Without testing you are just "throwing parts at the problem".

Please don't even listen to anyone pedaling maintenance free, salt free, magnetic, etc systems. These types are snake oil.

There are also con artists out there that will quote outrageous numbers of like 8-15k for basic softener/filter systems. 

It sounds like a simple softener, AIO iron/sulfur filter (maybe, depends on the water chemistry), RO, and UV is what you need. No way to know without testing though. Pricing is regional but you are probably looking at $4-7k from an honest water treatment dealer for the above components.

If you are comfortable with plumbing or know someone who is you can purchase the equipment online and install yourself (you can save a lot of $ this way, the equipment is not all that expensive) . Get a water test and post the results on this forum: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?forums/water-softener-forum-questions-and-answers.22/ they will be able to help with equipment selection and setup

old_ said:

Please don't even listen to anyone pedaling maintenance free, salt free, magnetic, etc systems. These types are snake oil.

That's kinda the impression I got. They didn't quite gel with my understanding of physics and there were a few too many people on the Internet shouting "but it works, I don't care if it makes scientific sense or not".

There are also con artists out there that will quote outrageous numbers of like 8-15k for basic softener/filter systems. 

It sounds like a simple softener, AIO iron/sulfur filter (maybe, depends on the water chemistry), RO, and UV is what you need. No way to know without testing though. Pricing is regional but you are probably looking at $4-7k from an honest water treatment dealer for the above components.

We already have the UV and an RO for drinking water that came with the house. I'm pretty sure the RO needs new filters so they're on order right now.

The ballpark quote for the system with the components I mentioned above came in at about 7500, which honestly felt a little high compared to what was there. Based on your comments it it's indeed a little but not massively high.

If you are comfortable with plumbing or know someone who is you can purchase the equipment online and install yourself (you can save a lot of $ this way, the equipment is not all that expensive) . Get a water test and post the results on this forum: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?forums/water-softener-forum-questions-and-answers.22/ they will be able to help with equipment selection and setup

I assume the water test is done with the water _before_ the current filtration system, correct?

I'm generally OK-ish with plumbing but I'm probably going to get someone in to do the work as a time saving measure. Plus the shutoff/bypass vavles are in a bit of a state and I'd rather have a pro deal with them in case they break.

Yes the sample for testing is taken before any existing treatment equipment. You want a sample straight from the well, untreated.

Like I said before, call a couple local water treatment companies. This is what they do. You will get a system that is properly sized and tailored to your needs. 

+1 with getting your water tested. Our neighborhood has manganese (?sp/ correct name?) that eats copper pipes from the inside out. When we first bought the house we thought the water tasted fine and really didn't notice anything for a while. Then the dishwasher started getting stains on the plastic tub and we noticed green build up where the tub dripped a little. We ended up with an acid neutralizer and a salt brine tank. Fairly easy to maintain, fill the salt tank up once a month or so and the acid neutralizer tank goes about a year or so before it needs more media added.  Locally there is Culligan that advertises alot. I think they are a national chain. 

I do several systems a year.  Always after a water guy has come in and given his spin on why the system should cost twice as much as it really should.  Sounds like you have acidic water with a high dissolved iron content.  The way those systems work is first air is introduced into the water.  Dissolved iron needs oxygen to turn to rust and particulate out.  Then the tiny rust particles are removed in a second tank/filter.  Then the water gets treated for its acidity.  Usually thats just calcite in another tank.  If it really acidic, there are stronger reactants.  Problem with calcite is it often makes the water hard, so then it needs to go thru a softener as well.  Most of the ones I do are for water with a PH around 6.0.  Seen water as low as 5.1.  I'll install a calcite tank and a good water softener.  That is somewhere around 1500 in materials and I like to get another 1000 to install them.  I've done them for just under $2K for friends, family, friends of family etc.  The quotes people are getting for the same setup from the water guys is in the $5K to $5500 range.  The mark up on this stuff is ridiculous.  The other problem, is this stuff has to be done by a licensed plumber here.  Most of the water guys are not plumbers, so they skirt around pulling permits and abiding by many of the local codes.  You need to start with a water test, then design the system to treat your water.  If you have a quote outlining the equipment they plan to install, try and figure out what that equipment costs.  Then figure what the materials inside the new tanks costs, and figure in some extra for the piping that needs to happen.  That will give you a baseline on materials.  Then decide how much you are willing to pay someone for a days labor to install it.  Some of the well and pump places will have salesmen that will look at your water report and give you a quote on what the materials will cost you.  They won't know about the fittings needed to install it, but if you have some pictures, they might be able to give you a good guess.  Just tell them you want to buy the material yourself and have a plumber friend of the family install it.  They will usually sell you the parts, all be it for more money than a plumber can walk in and buy the stuff.  Once you have that info, you can always get the plumber go get it.  I get all of my water treatment and pumps from a place called Preferred Pump.  They have 50 locations around the country.  See if there is one near you and call them up.... after you have your water tested.

tr8todd said:

I do several systems a year.  Always after a water guy has come in and given his spin on why the system should cost twice as much as it really should.  Sounds like you have acidic water with a high dissolved iron content.  The way those systems work is first air is introduced into the water.

Check, we've got an air valve/injector on the pump side of the pressure tank and an air-something-or-other-cylinder on the other side. Water guy labelled it as "obsolete technology" and was playing on up my non-existing fear of the air valve introducing contaminants and *shudder* bacteria et al. The latter was especially funny as we have an UV light in the system already due to coliform bacteria found in the system when we bought the house.

 Dissolved iron needs oxygen to turn to rust and particulate out.  Then the tiny rust particles are removed in a second tank/filter.  Then the water gets treated for its acidity.  Usually thats just calcite in another tank.  If it really acidic, there are stronger reactants.  Problem with calcite is it often makes the water hard, so then it needs to go thru a softener as well.  Most of the ones I do are for water with a PH around 6.0.  Seen water as low as 5.1.  I'll install a calcite tank and a good water softener.

We have both, and after some cleaning etc, the softener is working OK-ish again. I've got some Calcite on order for the calcite tank and see if I can get that one going again. Well, as soon as I found my ph testing strips.

 That is somewhere around 1500 in materials and I like to get another 1000 to install them.  I've done them for just under $2K for friends, family, friends of family etc.  The quotes people are getting for the same setup from the water guys is in the $5K to $5500 range.  The mark up on this stuff is ridiculous.  The other problem, is this stuff has to be done by a licensed plumber here.  Most of the water guys are not plumbers, so they skirt around pulling permits and abiding by many of the local codes.  You need to start with a water test, then design the system to treat your water.  If you have a quote outlining the equipment they plan to install, try and figure out what that equipment costs.  Then figure what the materials inside the new tanks costs, and figure in some extra for the piping that needs to happen.  That will give you a baseline on materials.  Then decide how much you are willing to pay someone for a days labor to install it.  Some of the well and pump places will have salesmen that will look at your water report and give you a quote on what the materials will cost you.  They won't know about the fittings needed to install it, but if you have some pictures, they might be able to give you a good guess.  Just tell them you want to buy the material yourself and have a plumber friend of the family install it.  They will usually sell you the parts, all be it for more money than a plumber can walk in and buy the stuff.  Once you have that info, you can always get the plumber go get it.  I get all of my water treatment and pumps from a place called Preferred Pump.  They have 50 locations around the country.  See if there is one near you and call them up.... after you have your water tested.

Thanks - I'll check if there is a Preferred Pump near us anywhere.

I think the $700 unspecified toilet (installed) was a bit of a flag that we might have been dealing with an, err, top of the range pricing salesperson?

Anyway, my current plan is as follows:

• Try to get the bypass valves on both the calcite and softener tanks working (done)
• Regen the softener a couple of times with some appropriate chemical (Iron Out or similar - done one, will do the next full regen next weekend; water quality already improved).
• Replace injector and clean out filters in the softener.
• Replace calcite in calcite tank after measuring pH
• Keep an eye on the brine tank. My suspicion is that the softener we have uses a lot more salt pellets than expected/normal. It does appear to work though, and I'm hoping that the salt pellets that are infused with iron cleaner are going to do their job over time.

If all of the above fails, then we'll look at replacing the main filters with a system that doesn't rely on voodoo "science" after trying to figure out exactly what we need.

Sounds like you are well on your way.  Two biggest issues I see are the heads can get really gunked up with rust and minerals and stop working.,  New heads are $250 ish.  Google Fleck 5600.  Those are probably what you have.  The other issue is with the old calcite tank.  Best bet is to siphon all of the water out and then take the whole tank outside.  Clean it out really well.  Put in a fresh bed of gravel.  One bag or about 40 pounds should do it.  It will fill approximately 1 foot of the tank.  Then add calcite until you are about 15 to 18 inches from the top.  Make sure the dip tube doesn't move or you won't get the head back on.  Use a funnel and make sure no calcite gets down inside the tube.  Make the funnel out of a one gallon water jug or a 2L soda bottle.  Fill it in place because its going to weigh about as much as a small block when its full.  Flush the e36m3 out of it before you put it into service.  Probably 12 to 15 minutes.  Even then you still might have to go around and clean out all of your aerators.  I try to get $175 labor to install a toilet and cart away the old one.  If I end up having to do flange repairs, the cost can double if its a cast flange where I have to use lead and Oakum.  American Standard toilet with the Champion 4 flush system from the Depot for $200 is the best thing going.  You won't clog that bad larry even with the 1.28 gallon flush.  They come with everything you need in the box including the plastic tool to secure the nuts and bolts.

Somewhat relevant to my interests due to the situation with the well at the boondoggle cabin (not its official name, but it works...)

The well itself puts out, as of the last time they tested it 3-4 months ago, about 150-200 gallons a day... which is solidly less than ideal for even a small vacation cabin, especially when factoring in the presence of a hot tub that (due to it being a rental cabin) will likely need to be drained and re-filled more often than if it were just us using it. The well can apparently hold about 400 gallons itself (it's pretty deep), but to ensure that there's enough water for the cabin to use and to fill the hot tub, we need to be capturing as much as possible so there will be a 500 gallon holding tank under the cabin that will be filled up once the well itself is full. According to the well drillers, if we were just pulling water from the well we wouldn't need any additional treatment/filtration (at least for bacteria), but with the water sitting in a tank we will need some kind of sanitizer (likely UV) to ensure there aren't problems with bacteria. Not looking forward to seeing how much all of the pumps and piping for all of this costs, especially since the well itself ate up all of the initially allocated money in the loan for the water system...

In reply to Ashyukun (Robert) :

I don't think the UV light was that expensive, but then again I haven't found out yet how much the replacement bulb is going to cost me...