Driving Simulators

So the principal at my school wants me to investigate getting a driving simulator. I would like one for those students whose parents are pretty lax about getting their kids into the car. I had a student tell me her parent was too busy grading college papers (college professor) to take her out in the car at home. She needs familiarity more than anything. Others would benefit just the same. I found this:

Simultor with rear monitors

Costs about $20000 with all the bells and whistles. I especially like the rear monitors and the dangerous and distracted elements. But it's more than this public school DE budget can handle!

Talked to my IT department. They suggested seeing if the company would lease the software and we could build the hardware side of it. Worth looking into? What do you think?

The wheel / pedals they are using in the pics is a Logitech G27. The use of a sport seat is pretty funny. The setup would probably be pretty easy to recreate if you had the software as the IT guys said.

I don't know anything about normal driving simulators though (unless you want them to learn the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca.)

I know some DE instructors using Playstations and similar. Pretty good start but the simulators designed for DE instructions add things like BAC level, distracted driving, severe weather etc.

You can buy this classic driving trainer module for $150!

Javelin wrote: You can buy this classic driving trainer module for $150!

Yeah! That's what our kids need. Three on the tree!

just put them in a damn car... they have to learn to swim eventually, so you might as well just throw them in the deep end...

Javelin wrote: You can buy this classic driving trainer module for $150!

the ad says it's from the 50's and 60's, but the column mounted ignition switch and 70's era GM steering wheel says differently...

$20,000 for that?!

The easiest 'simulator' is a gaming console with a steering wheel and pedal set. For a more immersive experience though you really need to move the 'driver' in response to the action on screen.

SimCraft hosted a preview event with our local BMW club. I actually preferred their two-axis simulators to the more expensive three axis rigs, but they all provided a pretty immersive sense of motion. They sell DIY 2-axis kits from $3,500 - but you'd need to add the cost of lumber to built the chassis and a PC with iRacing, monitor, speakers, seat, etc... so maybe $4,500 - $5,000 all in.

Personal opinion from a guy who instructs at a teen driving school: simulators are a waste of money and time.

What kids need to learn is how a car feels under them, and to learn basic car control through weight transfer. NO simulator can give them this. The most accurate driving simulation I know of is iRacing, and there isn't a person out there who can jump onto it and not crash going through the first turn because you are relying solely on visuals. It's a very steep learning curve.

Far better you spend that $20,000 towards putting on an event like this: Doug Herbert's Put On The Brakes Our local group successfully does this with local sponsors for about that figure. Once a few well-heeled parent's kids go through it, paying for it is pretty easy.

^Some decent points. Driving in a sim is harder than driving in real life, and the usual advantages of sim use - affordability and safety - aren't being had when you're building a 5-digit sim setup for the purpose of teaching basic driving skills. So +1 for a cheap old beater and/or paying for some courses.

We have a really impressive bus simulator at work. It doesn't come close to the feel of driving an actual bus. With money as tight as it is now there is probably a better way to get kids seat time.

The advantages of simulators are similar to how they are used for planes. They are more for practicing process, and most especially simulating extreme / dangerous situations (certainly something you don't want to do on the street).

Also, much better for learning from your mistakes, many times the most effective learning. You certainly don't want them learning the result of cutting off a big rig on the street.

Although certainly better in real life, simple skid control / low traction situation would be much better to try in a simulator first. You build up your desired response in the simulator, so when a real life situation develops you don't have to think it through as much.

ddavidv wrote: Personal opinion from a guy who instructs at a teen driving school: simulators are a waste of money and time.

+1

The seat time in a real car provides tactile and auditory stimulus that is a large part of what learning to drive it. No matter how good the AI or programming is; it cannot simulate the randomness of driving a real car and learning to focus on driving instead of the pinging noise of gravel or the kid playing chicken on the bicycle to see how close he can stop to the edge of the curb. Or the guy texting in the next lane that drifts into your lane. All mixed into feeling the car lean over to go around a simple turn or braking to the point that stuff is falling off the seats being perfectly fine as long as you don't hit what is in front of you. Hitting the rock or pothole that puts the car off course if you don't manage the steering wheel. All learning that must be done in a real car.

Invest 20k in more hours with the kids. not more gadgets.

Echoing others...

$20k will buy a Miata, a E36 M3load of Dawn soap and an empty mall parking lot for a couple years.

Having instructed at Street Survival on a number of occasions... I know you can teach a kid a lot about car control in a few hours of real seat time in any POS car they happen to have handy. Kids are engaged by cool E36 M3 like slaloms and emergency braking on slippery ground. They obviously hadn't learned any of that playing Forza so... yeah. Save the $20k parallel parking sim and find some cheap alternatives in the real world. That is the one they will die in.

In reply to aircooled:

Ours is useful in that regard but it seems that if money is an issue the simulator you end up with may not be that helpful.

OP: I've got a PS2 Logitech still in the box (used once, planned on doing a setup like you're describing, got an XBOX shortly after.) I'd LOVE to get rid of it, and I might still have the PS2 and Gran Turismo (whatever the last one was that they made for that system.

PM if interested.

My HS used that driving simulator from the craigslist post. Absolutely worthless for everything except for rules of the road.

As far as actual car control goes, you learn nothing. I learned a lot more from NFS Porsche Unleashed.

aircooled wrote: Although certainly better in real life, simple skid control / low traction situation would be much better to try in a simulator first. You build up your desired response in the simulator, so when a real life situation develops you don't have to think it through as much.

Nope, gonna disagree. Again, you're relying solely on your eyes. By the time the car is sliding in real life through your vision, it may be too late to save it. I actually teach the skid recovery part of our schools, and what we do it repetitive (though varied) skid recovery. It quickly becomes instinctive; they 'feel' the car start to let go and correct it before it becomes unsaveable. Much like riding a bike, once it's learned, it's in there and they no longer have to 'think'; they just react.

I made this truly amateur video at our last school simply as a tool to explain our course to people who think we are teaching parallel parking and "how to use your turn signals": ddavidv beating on rental cars

Street Survival is a fantastic program designed for young drivers.

http://streetsurvival.org/

http://www.tirerack.com/features/motorsports/street_survival.jsp

Well, here’s my $.02. Take it for what it’s worth.

Like the others have said, the majority of that money would be much better spent on actual driving, rather than simulator time, especially for a beginner. And any event like the one mentioned above to get some at-the-limits experience would be great. I could see a sim being beneficial to someone with some significant seat time in the real thing already, just to hone the procedural, rules of the road book skills.

I suppose also a once-thru on a sim could be good for a beginner just for a “here’s what to expect, so don’t freak-out your first time behind the real wheel” lesson, but they need lots of seat of the pants feel to go with it.
I had been driving for years before my first Evolution Autocross School and I couldn’t believe how much more connected I felt behind the wheel after that. I plan someday to get my kids into defensive driving events, and also to autocrosses once they have some experience. Then again I’m preaching to the choir on that one.

That being said I think having a sim in the classroom would have been AWESOME. Maybe I could’ve got my license on my birthday instead of 4 months later, since the wrestling coach kept taking the Drivers’ Ed car on days I was scheduled to drive. Nope, not bitter. Wow, it’s been 24 years, let it go. Ok, focus.

Just some thoughts:

How much is just the software for that simulator, without all the bells and whistles? You know, without the fancy metal rig with diamond plating and the several hundred dollar racing seat bolted to it?

Does your school have some kind of drafting or shop class? Maybe if the sim software itself is a reasonable price, a shop class project of building a simple frame could be a good project for them as well as saving a ton of money. I’m talking a couple hundred bucks rather than thousands for a frame and seat.

I’m in the process of designing a “simulator” in SolidWorks for home just for racing games. Nothing elaborate like 2 or 3 axis motion or anything like that, but just a pvc pipe frame to mount a game wheel and pedals and a junkyard seat. After doing a lot of online research there are even homebuilt motion rigs out there that are simply unbelievable. Check out youtube for ideas. There are racing sim rigs out there made from anything ranging from coffee tables, to pvc pipes and fittings, to angle iron, to 2x4’s, to an elderly person’s walker. Just use your imagination and you can go all GRM on it.

Wow, why do I write posts longer than I would actually read?

Cliff notes:

Spend real money on real driving, see how much just the sim software/hardware is, and find a way to build the sim rig on a GRM budget. Think $2013 Challenge Simulator. After all, this is the group that only spends 2 grand on some of the coolest, most wicked race cars around. Hmm, unless the software accounts for $19,500 out of the $20,000, . . . then I got nothin’.

My suggestion? Look into buying or renting a skidcar rig. They allow you to show a variety of driving situations at very low speeds. All you need is a decent sized parking lot and some cones.

After having to drift a Camry around what was essentially an autocross course on what felt like an ice rink with bald tires, I have to say it was an impressive tool for learning car control at safe speeds.

Folks,

Don't you think I would love to get them in Miatas and have them learn the finer points of weight transfer, the friction circle, etc.?

DE is regulated through the state. In Vermont that means a very strict curriculum designed to make perfect little citizens who obey all the laws.

My need is to get kids familiar and comfortable operating simple controls and scanning into the distance further up than the average 3-5 seconds most people look up the road. Too many parents are circumspect at best in teaching their kids. I can only do so much with the 6 hours of behind the wheel instruction I have with each kid when they are required to know the parallel park, hill start and intersection turn-around beyond other stuff.

You want real change? Speak to your legislators. Tell them you are tired of having your kids trained using a 1950's mode of instruction.

Until a wholesale change in attitude occurs where we value true driving skills in combination with reasonable and prudent decision making I can only do what I can for these kids.

I am looking for the best means possible short of getting them in cars. This device can help. Even if only one student uses it to figure things out. I know it's no substitute for seat time, seat time, seat time.

Deaths from car crashes is the NUMBER ONE killer of young people--not guns, not drugs, not suicide.

I would love to have teen survival, skid school, etc for these kids. Unfortunately none will come to Vermont. We're too small. I've inquired.

Poopshovel I may just take you up on that offer. I'll PM once I know more about this system and others.

why is it so hard for parents to take their kids out to country roads and let them drive? my cousin's 13 year old son and 11 year old daughter get to drive their suburban on gravel roads pretty much every weekend, and i will probably be letting them get some ice racing seat time in my Neon this winter so they can learn car control on ice... both of them have been racing motocross since they were 5 years old...