1 2 3 4 ... 11
SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
2/1/11 10:37 a.m.

This looks like about 12 issues all jumbled together...

-Government budgets and political guidance of them have almost nothing to do with tuition costs, at least not at private institutions.

-Educational quality and costs is entirely on a state-by-state basis. While a lot of other stuff sucks in GA, most people can get a (essentially free) college education if they really want one.

-Unions have much greater influence on teacher's pay and benefits than politicians, and the perks they seek are typically unsustainable for a region. NJ teachers get 100% paid health care (anybody else get that?), and the union thinks it is unreasonable that the Governor wants them to contribute 3%, while the state budget is flushing down the toilet.

  • Are we sure we want the Fed meddling in education?

  • I understand teachers don't generally agree with this, but in most locales they are a privileged bunch, at least when it comes to benefits, health care, job security, etc. etc. Considering at-will employment doctrine, their union defines additional rights which make them TRULY blessed.

  • I agree on the comments about dumbing down and ADHD, but they are probably not relevant to the subject.

  • I'm really not sure what due process has to do with this discussion, other than by a fairly twisted understanding of it's meaning. If the law allows firing at will, then they have been given their due process. End of story.

Interesting subject, but I'm pretty sure this thread is going to end in a train wreck with so little focus.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
2/1/11 10:40 a.m.

In reply to Xceler8x:

There is a problem with "firing non-performing teachers" or even "rewarding 'good' teachers." The problem is that politics has so taken over the education system that there is no way to find "good" or "non-performing" teachers. Take a group of kids, separate out the dumb berkeleys, put them in one class and what do you know? That teacher is "non-performing." So this teacher is buddy-buddy with that administrator and gets smarter kids. Instant "good teacher" status.

These assumptions about grading teachers only work if one assumes that every class of 30 kids is the same. It ain't so. 30 kids in Compton won't perform as well as 30 kids in Beverly Hills on any academic test. That's a fact. If you don't like it, tough. Change your perceptions. We were not all created equal. It isn't the teachers in Compton versus BH that made the difference, although when your primary goal for the education day is to not get shot, stabbed or otherwise assaulted, that tends to effect the education curriculum.

ADHD is another subject, and you are correct. You should read my essay on mental health. http://www.drhess.net/Clip_n_Saves.htm#Dr.Hess%20on%20Mental%20Health

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
2/1/11 10:43 a.m.
SVreX wrote: -Government budgets and political guidance of them have almost nothing to do with tuition costs, at least not at private institutions. - Are we sure we want the Fed meddling in education?

How do you figure that? At public college, I am pretty sure funding has a lot to do with the cost of tuition. Also I never said that I wanted the Fed meddling in education. I think education is a state thing but they are the ones that are always cutting the funds.

ZOO
ZOO GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
2/1/11 10:48 a.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: In reply to Xceler8x: There is a problem with "firing non-performing teachers" or even "rewarding 'good' teachers." The problem is that politics has so taken over the education system that there is no way to find "good" or "non-performing" teachers. Take a group of kids, separate out the dumb berkeleys, put them in one class and what do you know? That teacher is "non-performing." So this teacher is buddy-buddy with that administrator and gets smarter kids. Instant "good teacher" status. These assumptions about grading teachers only work if one assumes that every class of 30 kids is the same. It ain't so. 30 kids in Compton won't perform as well as 30 kids in Beverly Hills on any academic test. That's a fact. If you don't like it, tough. Change your perceptions. We were not all created equal. It isn't the teachers in Compton versus BH that made the difference, although when your primary goal for the education day is to not get shot, stabbed or otherwise assaulted, that tends to effect the education curriculum. ADHD is another subject, and you are correct. You should read my essay on mental health. http://www.drhess.net/Clip_n_Saves.htm#Dr.Hess%20on%20Mental%20Health

There is research that suggests socio-economic background can be overcome by strong teachers and curriculum. But, I would agree with you one-hundred percent that finding the data to "rank" and "sort" teachers based on their performance is almost impossible. In part, because unions don't want you to know that. For most unions, a teacher is a teacher is a teacher. As a former administrator, and a current teacher (by choice) I know that is far from the truth.

Give me students. Make sure they attend. I guarantee I can move them forward. But don't add complex social problems, mental health concerns, and violence to the mix -- I can't fix those as easily in the classroom.

I am privileged to teach. I don't feel entitled to my salary and benefits (and again, I am truly lucky -- I teach in a province with fantastic compensation). But I know that I work hard to earn those benefits, and the trust of both the public and my students.

PHeller
PHeller Dork
2/1/11 11:09 a.m.

Blah blah blah...

I was going to ramble on about some nonsense then I decided this was simpler:

Copy China's educational format.

Problem solved.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
2/1/11 11:10 a.m.
93EXCivic wrote:
SVreX wrote: -Government budgets and political guidance of them have almost nothing to do with tuition costs, at least not at private institutions. - Are we sure we want the Fed meddling in education?
How do you figure that? At public college, I am pretty sure funding has a lot to do with the cost of tuition. Also I never said that I wanted the Fed meddling in education. I think education is a state thing but they are the ones that are always cutting the funds.

I said private, you said public.

What funding are you asking about? State or Federal?

Whose "They"?

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
2/1/11 11:11 a.m.

State funding.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
2/1/11 11:16 a.m.

So, your original question is about politicians in the state of KY cutting budgets to KY state colleges?

That is probably something very few of us know much about.

Or are you asking some more generalized question?

ZOO
ZOO GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
2/1/11 11:24 a.m.
PHeller wrote: Blah blah blah... I was going to ramble on about some nonsense then I decided this was simpler: Copy China's educational format. Problem solved.

Yes, if you want a bunch of automatons that don't question authority

There is no doubt that the Chinese education system produces results in some areas -- but it also produces huge deficits in other areas.

wcelliot
wcelliot HalfDork
2/1/11 12:25 p.m.

In both cases (undergraduate and graduate) you're bearing the cost of a huge bureaucracy. We already spend more per student than about any other country, but have much less to show for it because, in general, both teachers and the bureaucracies are completely unaccountable for their performance.

You'd think that increasing teacher pay would result in better teachers, but unless you change the system, it really only results in better paid teachers of the same basic quality. You already have dozens of applicants for each teacher job... obviously the pay/benefits package isn't dissuading interest... (Both of my parents were public school teachers.)

And you're already heard my opinion about universities... run almost exclusively by those who share a singular opinion on politics and economics. Not really any surprise that prices shoot up annually.... while actual teaching stagnates or even regresses. That's the nature of the system they promote...

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 1:29 p.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: It does cost a lot to teach him that butt berkeleying each other or murdering his little sister is a good thing.

Thanks for the objective view. Very insightful.

Otto Maddox
Otto Maddox HalfDork
2/1/11 1:34 p.m.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy Dork
2/1/11 1:59 p.m.
fast_eddie_72 wrote:
Dr. Hess wrote: It does cost a lot to teach him that butt berkeleying each other or murdering his little sister is a good thing.
Thanks for the objective view. Very insightful.

Indeed it is, I <3 Dr. Hess. I re-read that article on his site for good measure, and it's refreshing to hear somebody apply logic to the madness.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
2/1/11 2:11 p.m.
SVreX wrote: So, your original question is about politicians in the state of KY cutting budgets to KY state colleges? That is probably something very few of us know much about. Or are you asking some more generalized question?

Kentucky and Alabama. Sorry to cause this train wreck. I was just ranting.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 2:18 p.m.
Xceler8x wrote: I have a theory that kids who are diagnosed with ADHD are actually some of the most intelligent and perceptive.

Not an expert on the subject, but have some personal experience. In the 70s I was one of those kids who "didn’t work up to his potential". No one could figure out why. All I knew was I couldn't stand school and sitting in my room doing homework felt like torture. Finally one psychologist said I was "hyper-active". They wanted to put me in the "Learning Disabled" class. Whew. Luckily my parents, both of whom worked in public education, said no way.

I suffered my way through school. When I couldn’t make it through the public school, they put me in private school. They work a little harder for you when you represent a pay check, so I suffered on a while longer. Private High School cost more than college and every summer I was in summer school for something I failed. But I made it.

College was a lot easier. Go for an hour or 90 minutes then you can get out of there for a bit. I was on the Dean’s list. Amazing turn around, even if I didn’t go to the most prestigious school in the world. Once I finally got done with school and started to work everything was different. I did great. Got promoted several times and now run a department. But it was always hard. I missed meetings, forgot to do paperwork, lost things. But my job primarily is to be creative and I do that part very well. So I was always able to make it through.

I made it like that for 40 years. Just trying and never understanding why some things were so hard for me. I never really learned math or a foreign language. Just too much “sit down and study”. And my daughter was exactly like me. She tested into the “Highly Gifted” program at her school. 99th percentile. Whip smart kid. But couldn’t do the work. Oh man, did I know how she felt. We did all the same things my parents did. Lots of tests. She was treated for “anxiety” (as was I at one point) with no improvement. Finally someone said “you know, I think she has ADHD.” It all came back to me. That psychologist who said I was “hyper-active”. Ah. Light came on.

My daughter and I both went to get some help. I take Adderall, she takes Concerta. She’s in one of the best public schools in Denver and getting straight As! She’s been advanced twice in math. I can’t tell you how much better my life is. I had coined a term – I used to say I was “fully-whelmed”. That’s the stage right before “overwhelmed”. In truth, I was overwhelmed all the time. I just couldn’t manage all the things I had to do. I had loads of coping mechanisms and now that I’m a “boss” I could build my department in a way that worked for me. I always had a manager working under me who was the “detail person”. But I never felt like I had anything under control until I got the Adderall.

Now, after that very long anecdote, back to your point. Are people with ADHD some of the most intelligent? I have a little different view. We’re cut out differently. Our brains aren’t like other people’s. It allows us to see things differently sometimes. I speak to advertising students from time to time and I always include my definition of Creativity: the ability to see things another way. People with ADHD don’t have to think “out of the box” because we never got the box to begin with. It has some, few, applications that are advantageous, particularly where creativity is involved. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that my daughter auditioned for and was accepted to the Denver School of the Arts. It’s where she belongs.

But overall, I’ll tell you this. It’s not an advantage. It’s something of a disability. We don’t tend to relate well to other people. Again, that’s in part because we don’t really understand the conventions of society all the time. We don’t get “the box”. We can’t balance our check books. We tend to self-medicate with too much food or alcohol because we never feel like we quite get it. But with some help and medication we can do just fine.

I’ve read some interesting things about ADHD and why it wouldn’t have been selected out through evolution. The theory is that it must have some advantage or we wouldn’t be here. I suspect it’s related to what I said above. One of “us” brought the creative notion that led to domestication of fire and animals. Some of us were probably pretty entertaining. Bet there were more than a few Court Jesters with ADHD. When we’re “locked in” on something we’re really, really into, ironically, we can’t be dissuaded. It’s like hyper attention. I’m sure a fair few inventers had ADHD. Some say Galileo and Einstein had ADHD. I don’t know. Very hard for me to imagine someone with ADHD who can do math, but if it’s your “thing”, then maybe.

Sometimes we write really long notes too. I’ll stop now.

Duke
Duke SuperDork
2/1/11 2:21 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: Why the hell is it that the first that seems to always get cut is education? Don't politicians realize that education is the only way we can keep our position as a world power. Every year it seems like teaching jobs get cut and tuition keeps going up.

Why is it that Philadelphia's teacher's union goes on strike in late August, not early June?

Also, I'm going to go out on an unpopular limb and say we are spending plenty on education in terms of dollars. The real problem is how stupidly we are spending it.

ShadowSix wrote: I'm not sure why, but the teacher's unions have been a favorite target for Republicans for a really long time. It always seemed odd to pick on a group of people who have opted into a public service career with limited compensation potential.

Because many - not all, but many - teachers' unions are the educational equivalent of the worst of the UAW or Teamsters: all about protecting their own interests at whatever cost to the actual product.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 2:41 p.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: ADHD is another subject, and you are correct. You should read my essay on mental health. http://www.drhess.net/Clip_n_Saves.htm#Dr.Hess%20on%20Mental%20Health

I read your essay. It's an entertaining read- you should write opinion pieces for the paper. I think I "get you" a little better after reading that.

I get your point and I don't disagree a whole lot with most of what you say. Let's talk about this bit though:

"ADD/ADHD/whatever the buzz phrase is of today: 99% over diagnosed. A product of today’s information age. Learning to meditate would probably cure 90% of the adults diagnosed with ADD."

I agree it's over diagnosed. 99%? Eh, doubt it. But clearly over diagnosed. I learned meditation as a skill to help deal with it, and like I said, I made it 40 years and rose to a level most would call pretty successful without medication. Things like meditation helped me do that. I took a good deal of responsibility for "how I was" (I didn't yet have the label ADD to hang on it) and I worked my way through it.

But meditation is no more a "cure" for ADD than a hat is a "cure" for being bald. It's something that helps you cope. I have a whole host of things that help me cope and my level of medication is very small. I'm teaching my daughter a lot of the things I've learned and we talk about when she's an adult and may not need medication any more. But the ADD won't go away. I don't think it's really a disease that you can cure. It's just how we are. I don't think there's any way to change it. Just part of our makeup. From our point of view, there's nothing wrong wtih us. We just can't understand why the rest of you built this society in such a ridiculous way. But, you did and we have to deal with it. So sometimes we need some help.

And I'd say the world is getting less optimal for people with ADD. We have a hard time filtering anything out. You may have noticed, there's a lot to filter these days and it seems to be getting worse. Without Adderall, I have a hard time even reading a paragraph if there is any noise at all. I can't "turn off" the dripping faucet, or the noisy air duct, or the muted conversation in the next cubicle. I always found myself printing important emails and finding a quiet place I could sneak off to and highlight the parts that mattered. I would always have a stack of those on my desk. When I needed to get the information again I would read them out loud so I could "hear" what it said.

You can imagine a time not all that long ago when this kind of "issue" would have been a lot easier to deal with.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
2/1/11 2:43 p.m.
fast_eddie_72 wrote:
Xceler8x wrote: I have a theory that kids who are diagnosed with ADHD are actually some of the most intelligent and perceptive.
Not an expert on the subject, but have some personal experience...

Here's a story I read that I rather enjoyed -

Once upon a time there was a little boy named Thomas, who had his own style of doing things. Thomas wanted to know, how things worked and what was inside things. He liked to take things apart – but usually didn’t put them back together again. In his room, it looked like a cyclone had hit. Thomas liked to talk nonstop about the things he found interesting – which were a lot of things- and he liked to argue about things, even with grown-ups. When his teacher gave an assignment, Thomas often forgot it or lost it, but sometimes when he turned it in it wasn’t what the teacher wanted at all, although Thomas always said it was much more interesting than what she asked for. Thomas kept trying things, touching things, and was always on the move.

Thomas never sat in one place, like his desk, for more than a few minutes, and he was always wriggling around and looking at everything but the teacher. His father said that if you could only harness Thomas up to the engine, he could probably pull a train with all that energy. At the same time, when Thomas was really involved in an experiment, like whether raw eggs or hard boiled eggs could balance better on the edge of the stove, he could block everything else out, and forget about his chores or schoolwork. His mother had to remind him again and again to do things, and when he finally did them they were always done the way his mother expected, or were left half done.

As Thomas grew older, he seemed to be even more out of step. His peers were interested in dances, and careers, and music. Thomas was interested in how things worked and watching the clouds move in the sky. He didn’t dress like the other teens, or keep his clothes neat, or hang around with them. He said it was because they had nothing interesting to say about the life-style of frogs, but it was also because the others thought he was strange. Not being able to catch everything that was said because of his hearing loss made it even harder for him. He didn’t have temper tantrums when he was stressed-out, the way he did when he was little (he felt guilty about those now), but he would go off and shut his door to tinker in his room.

His parents despaired, his grandmother predicted dire things, the other kids, laughed at him, his teachers thought he was disobedient and unteachable, probably retarded, and the neighbors shook their heads.

Thomas even left home for a while and bummed around on the railroad. Nothing would ever come of that boy, said the neighbors. They were sympathetic to his parents about having such a difficult child, but many of them privately thought that if his parents had taken Thomas out behind the wood shed more often he wouldn’t be such a problem now.

As Thomas grew into a man, he was able to spend more time tinkering with his experiments. Not just two or three or a dozen times trying out an idea, but hundreds, even thousands of times on one thing. People began to look at him as a real crackpot. He started a family of his own, but was often so preoccupied with his ideas and experiments that he would stay up all night trying things out. If he had gone to a psychiatrist, he probably would have been called obsessive compulsive, bipolar, or just an irresponsible, unrealistic dreamer.

What happened to Thomas? Was it a bonding problem with his parents? Should they have used the wood shed more often? Enrolled him in dancing classes and music lessons with other teens? Maybe his teachers should have thrown him out of school earlier when they thought he was retarded and disruptive, or put him into a special education classroom.

What’s your opinion? Think about it as you sit in the evening with the lights on. You know, the ones with light bulbs. The light bulbs that Thomas Alva Edison invented after thousands and thousands of tries, along with hundreds and hundreds of other patented inventions. Sometimes the things that drive parents and teachers crazy like risktaking, perseverance, or marching to your own music, are the same qualities that can bring light to the world. Think about it.

paanta
paanta Reader
2/1/11 2:50 p.m.
There is research that suggests socio-economic background can be overcome by strong teachers and curriculum. But, I would agree with you one-hundred percent that finding the data to "rank" and "sort" teachers based on their performance is almost impossible.

On that point, check this out and listen to the Planet Money podcast on the paper. Really interesting research that should give pause to anyone who wants to mess with our education funding without first understanding the problem.

It boggles the mind that some people think this is a good place to make cuts. I'd rather the roads were left to turn back to dirt and the senior citizens were left to eat their cats and that we ceded the middle east to the nuts and went without oil than that kids weren't given an education.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 2:53 p.m.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Here's a story I read that I rather enjoyed -

I've read that before. Did he have ADD? Who knows. Maybe. That's intentionally written to attribute all the "clinical" trates to him. He sure might have. It does seem to fit.

Those stories are great for kids who have ADD and feel bad about it. But that's really a rosy picture. There are a lot of folks who like to make it out like some kind of super-power. It's not. If Edison had ADD, I'd say for every one like him, there are a dozen sleeping under the bridge with a bottle under their arm.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
2/1/11 2:57 p.m.
fast_eddie_72 wrote:
DILYSI Dave wrote: Here's a story I read that I rather enjoyed -
I've read that before. Did he have ADD? Who knows. Maybe. That's intentionally written to attribute all the "clinical" trates to him. He sure might have. It *does* seem to fit. Those stories are great for kids who have ADD and feel bad about it. But that's really a rosy picture. There are a lot of folks who like to make it out like some kind of super-power. It's not. If Edison had ADD, I'd say for every one like him, there are a dozen sleeping under the bridge with a bottle under their arm.

Sad but true.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
2/1/11 3:17 p.m.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

I'm not a Pediatric Neurologist, just a simple country doctor. However, I'll stick with my raw guestimate of 99% over diagnosed. It is a lot closer number than 0%. You and your daughter may very well be in that 1% that really does have an attention deficit issue. That's 10 per thousand diagnosis, quite a lot really.

"Cure" is a rather strong word and can mean a lot of different things. Perhaps "vastly improve" is a better term to use in teaching concentration techniques/meditation to the 1% that are ADHD or whatever the buzz acronym today is. Of the people diagnosed ADHD/whatever that really only need concentration skills, then yes, meditation would likely cure them. The story I relate of the Pediatric Neurologist in Saudi Arabia was "curing" all the cases as he described. Those were in the 99%.

I've seen a person who went to their doctor, some kinda "primary" type doctor, who asked her: Do you ever have trouble concentrating? Uh, yeah, sometimes. OK, you're ADHD. Here's some drugs. And he put her on Adderal. I've seen 7 year old children put on drugs for no reason other than their mental case mother insisted.

I also understand being wired up differently than other people. We all have to make do with what God gave us, good and sub-optimal, and I'm glad you have developed the skills necessary to cope in the society we find ourselves dumped in.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
2/1/11 3:26 p.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: I'm not a Pediatric Neurologist, just a simple country doctor. However, I'll stick with my raw guestimate of 99% over diagnosed. It is a lot closer number than 0%. You and your daughter may very well be in that 1% that really does have an attention deficit issue. That's 10 per thousand diagnosis, quite a lot really. "Cure" is a rather strong word and can mean a lot of different things. Perhaps "vastly improve" is a better term to use in teaching concentration techniques/meditation to the 1% that are ADHD or whatever the buzz acronym today is. Of the people diagnosed ADHD/whatever that really only need concentration skills, then yes, meditation would likely cure them. The story I relate of the Pediatric Neurologist in Saudi Arabia was "curing" all the cases as he described. Those were in the 99%. I've seen a person who went to their doctor, some kinda "primary" type doctor, who asked her: Do you ever have trouble concentrating? Uh, yeah, sometimes. OK, you're ADHD. Here's some drugs. And he put her on Adderal. I've seen 7 year old children put on drugs for no reason other than their mental case mother insisted. I also understand being wired up differently than other people. We all have to make do with what God gave us, good and sub-optimal, and I'm glad you have developed the skills necessary to cope in the society we find ourselves dumped in.

My wife is an elementary teacher. Has been for 13 years. So in that time, she's had ~300 kids in her class, with probably another 600+/- she has dealt with through class swapping. So in the range of that 1000 you mentioned.

In that time, she's had 1 child in that time who was basically paralyzed without the medication. The kid was truly non-functional. Couldn't control himself physically, couldn't get to the end of a sentence without a distraction, etc. She's had maybe another dozen who benefited significantly and that she assessed where having a better life because of the drugs (sounds like this is where you land Eddie). She's also had a large percentage who she believes have no need for the drugs. They are simply guilty of being kids, but lazy parents / teachers have drugged them up because they are less difficult that way. That's the sad part.

EDIT - Not surprisingly, the "convenience users" are a LOT more prevalent in the high income school.

aircooled
aircooled SuperDork
2/1/11 3:51 p.m.
PHeller wrote: ....Copy China's educational format. Problem solved.

I was in China recently. One of the guides was talking about the constant studying and trying to pass various tests as a child (to see what schools they could get in etc.).

She added "When we were kids we didn't have fun"

She was a very serious, almost dull person, and I got the distinct impression that personality was not exactly a minority there..

...I am not sure we want a population of like that. Besides, China already has one, and they are way ahead of us in that area.

wbjones
wbjones Dork
2/1/11 4:25 p.m.
SVreX wrote: - Are we sure we want the Fed meddling in education?

and it's not now ? ever heard of "no child left behind" ?

according to my teacher friends that is the worst thing that's happened to public education in an awfully long time... they say that the only way they can keep their jobs is to teach the test...... no more creative teaching, just make sure the kids pass the end of yr test.....

as for everyone wanting a college education...... I'll acknowledge up front that I'm an old fart ... back when I was coming along ( que the really old grandpa's voice here) not everyone even wanted to go to college.. 'course you could make a decent living with a high school diploma ... many of us went to tech school (or more commonly called trade schools back then) + some actually worked their way through school... 'course they didn't go to Duke or (as mentioned) Davidson or schools of that level.. (notice I didn't say quality) nor did they go to NCSU or UNC ... there are LOTS of small public and private colleges out there that don't cost an arm and a leg (cost to attend Duke: About $48000/yr, including tuition, fees, books)

the education might not be as "good" or as prestigious, but really the only thing that the diploma does is get you your first job....... after that it's more about you performance (for the most part) than where you went

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