Enablers unite! Do I want a diesel?

I mean, I know want a diesel, but should I buy one? I'm looking for a truck for truck stuff and a backup vehicle. The heaviest towing I do is occasionally cars and my tractor which is probably less than 5000 lbs. I dont need a diesel. I never got any training on working on diesels. Any fuel mileage savings are probably negated by the higher price at the pump. Parts cost a lot more. The trucks cost a lot more. My 6.0 gas Silverado has done the job flawlessly for years. On paper there is no good reason for me to own one. But I just really like the sounds they make. I like the exhaust note and the turbo whistle. Even the smell. That's pretty much it. I'm too old to be getting sucked into a dumb decision because it seems cool, but here I am shopping the down south market for clean ones.

I'm not even feeling brand specific right now, I'm looking at gmt400, ford super duty with the 7.3, or cummins.

Talk me out of it. Or into it. Probably into it.

We only get one go around on this blue marble,  I say get what you want and feel good about it.  

Yes, you want a diesel.

You might expand your search a little. I had already decided I wanted a diesel. I had also decided I really didn't want a 3/4-1 ton chassis for daily usage. The damn things are huge. The 1/2 ton offerings weren't having very good track records. The local Ram dealers won't take an Eco Diesel on trade, Ford little diesel has had issues, and while the 3.0 Duramax looks pretty good they are holding their value very well. 

So I bought a Touareg TDI instead. Better fuel economy. Averages 19+ mpg in heavy traffic around town and 25+ on the highway depending on your speed. That gets you 600-700 miles of range with the 26 gallon tank.  7700 pound towing capacity and will knock down 14+ mpg with a loaded trailer or boat. Smaller than an aircraft carrier and I haven't missed the bed yet. With the AT tires, it even makes a pretty good softroader.  

While it hasn't been flawless it has been close and it eats miles like nothing I've ever owned. 

They're fun, and if you go pre-DEF reliability jumps up significantly. 

Having owned a 12v Cummins, 24v Cummins and a 7.3 Ford, the Ford offers similar reliability and capability, with a much better interior. 

No.  Gas motors can be fixed everywhere and make enough power unless you are towing big stuff.  The cost per mile on a diesel is not as good as you may think, do some math and see.  If you are willing to spend more money for a sound of a diesel and smell go ahead.  My only oil burner was a turbo jetta, and I can say the smell gets real old after a few months. YMMV

gearheadmb said:

 I'm too old to be getting sucked into a dumb decision because it seems cool....

I would argue that you are looking at the situation all wrong.  As a man of considerable experience, you have earned the right to make a buying decision just because it seems cool.

Go get that diesel!

Edit:  Consider also the people whose opinion you seek.  These are the same people who have elevated the ultimate hairdresser's car to rock star status.  These are by and large not diesel truck people.

"Any fuel mileage savings are probably negated by the higher price at the pump. Parts cost a lot more. The trucks cost a lot more. My 6.0 gas Silverado has done the job flawlessly for years."  

IMO. I think you answered the question all by yourself. 

gearheadmb said:

... But I just really like the sounds they make. I like the exhaust note and the turbo whistle. Even the smell. That's pretty much it.

Sounds like you should get a diesel then. The heart wants what the heart wants. You're going into this with eyes open so you probably won't be upset when the fuel is stinky and the oil changes cost a million dollars.

Protip: Get a dieselgate Jetta wagon and hack the exhaust off; diesel noise + great MPG

If they fit your budget, maybe take a Ford and/or GM 2.7T powered truck for a spin. They're a bit like crossing a naturally aspirated gas with a turbo diesel.

My grandpa was a machinist.  Loved to tinker with things and was fascinated by interesting mechanical things.  He wanted to learn about diesels and sold his bug to buy a 1960's diesel mercedes sedan.  

If he can do it in his 60's for fun.. so can you.

Having owned a few, I would only get a pre-DEF diesel and the more simple, the better. To me, this means Cummins 12V and 2003 or older VW TDI.  Less electronic stuff to go wrong and easier DIY service.   

That said, there are really only two reasons to buy a diesel - either because you drive a lot - enough to make the fuel mileage gains offset the additional maintenance costs; or simply because you want one.  I tend to straddle between the two.  I never really drove my Cummins truck to make the diesel pay for itself - although when I did drive it, it was fun - assuming it wasn't broken... which was often. I apparently got the most unreliable 12V ever made because it seemed like it was always broken... 

My TDI wagon was a well loved car for 329K miles until it stopped being the car I needed. While I was still driving a ton, a lot of those miles were paid for with expenses, so the extra space of the minivan was a greater benefit than the 50 MPG by the TDI. 

My current diesel is my 1992 E350 conversion van with a 7.3 IDI. Right now, similar problems that I had with the Cummins. It suffers from both lack of use as well as some odd previous owner issues I haven't had time to fix.  But I paid so little for it, having it sit until I have time to work on it doesn't bother me too much - although not having it to use is starting to annoy me, so I may start pouring $$$ into it to get it where I can use it when I want to.  

I have to admit... this thread got me wondering about searching for a European market 1998 VW T4 with a TDI and a 5 spd - a combination we never got in the US but now meets the 25 year rule.  But finding a 25 year old VW van in Europe in decent condtion will take some work... 

I say get one because it sounds like you're aware of some of the downsides and aren't going into it because they are the most reliable thing ever and get 40mpg towing 12k uphill.  

I bought the cheapest 7.3 Powerstroke (1999 F350 dually) I could find at the time for towing a travel trailer to the dunes.  It is my first foray into diesel ownership and I learned I like them (despite the downsides) but I'm paying the cost above a gasser to own it - cost per mile including fuel has been $0.75/mile over the last 50k miles.  A gas truck probably would have been cheaper but oh well :D

If you buy well and don't blow too much cash on parts/upgrades you should be able to sell and recoup most of your cost if you find out diesel ownership isn't as advertised

I have a 7.3 manual transmission f250 I will sell you cheap.

Not unless you want to throw money away.

In reply to Racebrick :

Details? 

I ended up with a 1999 f250 4wd manual trans, and had planned to do truck stuff with it. I found out quickly that it needs some work that I am not really in a position to do right now. It has an oil pan leak, and needs rear brake service including a hard line, among other things. If you want more details pm me, and I'll be in touch.

Toyman! said:

Yes, you want a diesel.

You might expand your search a little. I had already decided I wanted a diesel. I had also decided I really didn't want a 3/4-1 ton chassis for daily usage. The damn things are huge. The 1/2 ton offerings weren't having very good track records. The local Ram dealers won't take an Eco Diesel on trade, Ford little diesel has had issues, and while the 3.0 Duramax looks pretty good they are holding their value very well. 

So I bought a Touareg TDI instead. Better fuel economy. Averages 19+ mpg in heavy traffic around town and 25+ on the highway depending on your speed. That gets you 600-700 miles of range with the 26 gallon tank.  7700 pound towing capacity and will knock down 14+ mpg with a loaded trailer or boat. Smaller than an aircraft carrier and I haven't missed the bed yet. With the AT tires, it even makes a pretty good softroader.  

While it hasn't been flawless it has been close and it eats miles like nothing I've ever owned. 

This sent me down the diesel Touareg rabbit hole. Which branched off into the Porsche Cayenne rabbit hole... which briefly detoured into the Audi Q7 rabbit hole. Why are there so many rabbit holes?!

The_Jed said:

Toyman! said:

Yes, you want a diesel.

You might expand your search a little. I had already decided I wanted a diesel. I had also decided I really didn't want a 3/4-1 ton chassis for daily usage. The damn things are huge. The 1/2 ton offerings weren't having very good track records. The local Ram dealers won't take an Eco Diesel on trade, Ford little diesel has had issues, and while the 3.0 Duramax looks pretty good they are holding their value very well. 

So I bought a Touareg TDI instead. Better fuel economy. Averages 19+ mpg in heavy traffic around town and 25+ on the highway depending on your speed. That gets you 600-700 miles of range with the 26 gallon tank.  7700 pound towing capacity and will knock down 14+ mpg with a loaded trailer or boat. Smaller than an aircraft carrier and I haven't missed the bed yet. With the AT tires, it even makes a pretty good softroader.  

While it hasn't been flawless it has been close and it eats miles like nothing I've ever owned. 

This sent me down the diesel Touareg rabbit hole. Which branched off into the Porsche Cayenne rabbit hole... which briefly detoured into the Audi Q7 rabbit hole. Why are there so many rabbit holes?!

Yes, you want a diesel. Like any big life decision, you'll regret not doing it when you had the chance to do something you have an inclination to.

The Audi Q7 was offered with a V12 turbo diesel in some markets, which would be a riot.

Some vehicles towing are limited by the rated towing capacity, while others are limited by the payload. It pays to know which yours is. 

The Sedona we had was the former. The Toureg looks to be the latter. I believe the 3500 pound rated Sedona actually has a higher payload than the 7700 pound rated Toureg TDI. 

That Audi Q7 requires engine removal to replace the alternator, from memory.... I suspect it's the kind of car that's fun to drive, and for someone else to own!  

Diesels make great daily drivers.  I like the powerband for typical driving - typical, day to day acceleration seems to feel relatively feels effortless compared to a petrol equivalent, even if the petrol model is measurably faster.  Drive what you want, or what makes SWMBO happy. Ideally, both at the same time. 

Driven5 said:

Some vehicles towing are limited by the rated towing capacity, while others are limited by the payload. It pays to know which yours is. 

The Sedona we had was the former. The Toureg looks to be the latter. I believe the 3500 pound rated Sedona actually has a higher payload than the 7700 pound rated Toureg TDI. 

2014 Touareg payload is 1462 and towing is 7714. 

2014 Sedona payload is 1397 and towing is 1000. The Sedona got a bump to 3500# towing a few years later. 

Edit to add. The later Sedona got a 1600# payload and 3500# towing. 

edwardh80 said:

The_Jed said:

Toyman! said:

Yes, you want a diesel.

You might expand your search a little. I had already decided I wanted a diesel. I had also decided I really didn't want a 3/4-1 ton chassis for daily usage. The damn things are huge. The 1/2 ton offerings weren't having very good track records. The local Ram dealers won't take an Eco Diesel on trade, Ford little diesel has had issues, and while the 3.0 Duramax looks pretty good they are holding their value very well. 

So I bought a Touareg TDI instead. Better fuel economy. Averages 19+ mpg in heavy traffic around town and 25+ on the highway depending on your speed. That gets you 600-700 miles of range with the 26 gallon tank.  7700 pound towing capacity and will knock down 14+ mpg with a loaded trailer or boat. Smaller than an aircraft carrier and I haven't missed the bed yet. With the AT tires, it even makes a pretty good softroader.  

While it hasn't been flawless it has been close and it eats miles like nothing I've ever owned. 

This sent me down the diesel Touareg rabbit hole. Which branched off into the Porsche Cayenne rabbit hole... which briefly detoured into the Audi Q7 rabbit hole. Why are there so many rabbit holes?!

Yes, you want a diesel. Like any big life decision, you'll regret not doing it when you had the chance to do something you have an inclination to.

The Audi Q7 was offered with a V12 turbo diesel in some markets, which would be a riot.

The Touaregs came to the States with a V10 TDI from 2002 to 2008. It's a beast but almost every repair starts with the removal of the engine. Part of me is still tempted by them.

305 hp and 553 torque and I bet it's smooth as butter. 

In reply to The_Jed :

I started out looking at the Cayenne but couldn't justify the $15k - $20k premium the P gets. It also came with all the bells and whistles that I would never use. My Touareg is a Sport that comes with the basics, just like I prefer them. No glass roof to deal with, basic radio and nav, no air suspension. Just a basic car with a really nice engine under the hood and one of the best automatic transmissions I've ever driven. 

I vote "No". 
 

diesel is cool, its fun, torque crazy, etc. But considering the current hate for diesel and the obvious moves to squash it as a fuel, i say no. 
 

at this point, any 7.3 diesel ford you find is probably beat or problematic. Anything newer had different reliability issues.   I have talked with many diesel owners and former owners, the jist i get is that if you dont NEED diesel, dont buy one. 
 

an issue i have seen is the amount of diesels out there that have been owned and "fixed" by non-diesel and/or non mechanical people.  So much sloppy work and usually they are just absolutely beat.  If you were an old school experienced diesel mechanic, it would say go for it, but if you are a novice, dealing with 20 years of someone elses hackery is too much for a fun car. 
 

and for the record, i like diesels. I have a diesel tractor and a yanmar diesel on a mini bike.