Engineer types: How can I load a big Cummins generator?

In reply to alfadriver:

The real ECU will become important when we are showing results in real conditions in real vehicles. It will come later.

It does not help show generic improvements of changes in the fuel only.

We've already done combustion bomb testing and have a product that exceeds products NASA is currently testing by nearly 20%. Eventually, the BEST data will be from combustion bomb testing. Right now we are trying to optimize a blend, and may be working with 50 or more different variations. That's really costly to run combustion bomb testing on.

I'm trying to develop a test that will get me narrowed from 50+ variations to perhaps a half dozen, which we will then send to the combustion bomb.

The grassroots ideas like a concrete filled drum or a bunch of light bulbs might not be so bad...

In reply to foxtrapper:

What are you referring to about EPA NESHAP, test cells, etc??? Are you suggesting that someone doesn't like it if we run a generator???

Please explain.

iceracer wrote: wha sort of dyno does cummins use.

The Cummins shop is right next door to our plant. They use a dyno designed to test the engine. I'm not trying to test the engine, I'm trying to test the fuel.

Don't care about hp. I only care about fuel consumption and emissions.

SVreX wrote: In reply to alfadriver: The real ECU will become important when we are showing results in real conditions in real vehicles. It will come later. It does not help show generic improvements of changes in the fuel only. We've already done combustion bomb testing and have a product that exceeds products NASA is currently testing by nearly 20%. Eventually, the BEST data will be from combustion bomb testing. Right now we are trying to optimize a blend, and may be working with 50 or more different variations. That's really costly to run combustion bomb testing on. I'm trying to develop a test that will get me narrowed from 50+ variations to perhaps a half dozen, which we will then send to the combustion bomb.

Assuming that this is for real world diesel products, all I can say is one thing- how many of your potential customers use a combustion bomb. Vs. say a diesel powered vehicle. And since all current production diesel products are controlled via an ECU, if that type of equiped vehicle can't show an improvement, or it forces an ECU fault- it does not matter how good the combustion bomb data is if it does not do good in the real world.

Well, unless you pay someone, say like a K. Shealby, and have them spout about false physics and how great a product is. X-Min oil additive does a great job with that.....

As for the subcontracing and confidentiallity- they are all very used to it, and are very professional about those agreements. Write an agreement, make them sign it, and you'll be good to go. As much as I have posted faults about contract work, that part is one that I have no issue with- they will go out of their way to make sure your project is protected. If not, they stand to lose a TON of future work.

Resistive load is best when checking generators. When we load test our units at work(I work on gensets every day) we use our building load coupled with load banks like mentioned earlier. They are for lack of a better description just a giant toaster on wheels. You can dial in different banks of resistors to get you desired load on the engine,and then take your measurements. We load our gensets up to 90% of full load with the resistive load,and leave it there for 5 hours to test the true KW output of our gensets.

I bet you could rent the same load banks we use from a local place,and it wouldn't cost too much.If you only need it for a day I imagine it wouldn't be too cost prohibitive,but then again I don't pay the rental bills,and my company is a mega power in the industry so money is less of a object.

The product will have applications beyond vehicles. Large scale generators, trains, military, and NASA is looking at it.

I understand what you re saying about an ECU, but it is irrelevant at this stage. We will test for those conditions later.

We are simply trying to show what happens to this product in an engine, which happens to be widely used.

The inventor has 40 years of time as a senior leader in R&D for several oil companies. The point at this stage is to test the FUEL, not the engine.

And it is only an initial step. We will do better testing later.

In reply to Mazdax605:

I'll look further into renting load banks. One day won't cut it- it will be 2 months.

The actual kw output of the generator also does not matter- only that it is consistent.

Anybody have ideas other than generators?

The point is to load the engine consistently. 70% load would be nice.

SVreX wrote:

iceracer wrote: wha sort of dyno does cummins use.

The Cummins shop is right next door to our plant. They use a dyno designed to test the engine. I'm not trying to test the engine, I'm trying to test the fuel. Don't care about hp. I only care about fuel consumption and emissions.

You might find that with the right contract, Cummins would be willing to do the testing for you, too. They have everything you need, in place, probably on a running dyno, all you need to supply is the fuel and the contract.

AFAIK, backfeeding the grid is 100% legal in GA.

What about a boat? Surely you can find a Diesel boat to basically tie up and run in a pond/small private body of water.

Boat- wow, I love that idea! We can sit in the boat with a cooler full of beer running at WOT all day long while tied to the dock! Freakin' brilliant!

In reply to DILYSI Dave:

Yep, completely legal. But there is no law that says the power company has to make it easy on you. They don't.

Seriously though I talked to a co worker who used to work for mercury marine and lots of their testing was a dock with a bulkhead to mount outboards and a pit with a sterndrive to test inboards. He said they would run the motors nonsstop full throttle for months. Worked great simulated real world with no issues. Could run the engines at any load but could not control the rpm. The engines would just sit at peak torque for thousands of hours. The issue will be finding a diesel boat and figuring out how much life you will take off it.

The issue with the boat one is you don't have a consistent RPM/load like you would with a generator.

I stand by my lightbulb idea. Easy to fabricate, easy to adjust the load, and cheap.

SVreX wrote: What are you referring to about EPA NESHAP, test cells, etc???

There are federal regulations that may come into effect for what you're describing doing.

A diesel engine in a truck is different than the same engine in a test cell, and is different than the same engine powering a generator, which is different than one powering a generator providing electricity to the grid.

Don't be foolishly cavalier about it, do some reading and research, so you know for sure if you are exempt, or if you are subject to some or all or any of the regulations.

For some light intro reading on the subjects:

Engine test cell regulations http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/engtest/engtestpg.html

Piston engine standards http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/rice/ricepg.html and http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/nsps/cinsps/cinspspg.html

That's federal. Many states have delegation of those federal standards, as well their own. You need to check your state permitting requirements to see if you fall under their pervue doing what you describe.

Being in the business myself, I rather suspect you're likely to run afoul of the stationary generator aspect of the NSPS for reciprocating internal combustion engines (RICE), compression ignition. You're hopefully minor source sized for test cell, at least on actual emissions, your PTE will put you in the major source category.

When you're talking about running engines for months on end for long term tests, beware and make sure your eyes are open. If you don't know what I wrote above (rice, NSPS, PTE, etc), you need to talk to an environmental consultant in your area before you go too far with this project.

The wikipedia article on load cells contained within itself a link to what was commonly used about 20 years ago for this sort of thing...

check it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_rheostat

In reply to foxtrapper:

I am familiar with RICE NESHAP. As far as I am aware, it is applicable to units 200kw or larger, and will not be fully implemented until June 2013 IIRC. We'll be finished by then.

If you are aware of different guidelines, I'd appreciate the heads up.

If you are just being ornery and a naysayer, its not very helpful.

Here I saw 'load' and started thinking about forklifts and gantry cranes...

Paddle wheel, aerate a fish pond .

If you have access to a big tank, cheapest option might be a boat prop inside a chunk of pipe submerged in the tank. Add plenty of water and just let it circulate around. No generator head to buy, and the right prop will be fine directly driven at engine speeds. If you need more load, buy a bigger prop or add some restriction to the outlet of the pipe. Only two parts t make, a pipe with some hanger bearings and a driveshaft with an end for the prop and an end for the crank. Easy, cheap.

Please don't backfeed the grid without going through the proper paperwork. It's already plenty of work trying to keep my linemen alive without worrying about someone adding a generator to my system I don't know about and can't isolate.

SVreX wrote: I am familiar with RICE NESHAP. As far as I am aware, it is applicable to units 200kw or larger, and will not be fully implemented until June 2013 IIRC. We'll be finished by then.

RICE is both a major and area source NESHAP, and applies to stationary engines only (though the definition of stationary is mighty loopy, as they can be on wheels). It goes mighty small in the area source application. Parts of the regulation have been stayed, but not the applicability parts.

Very significantly, RICE does not apply to truck engines (as I recall, that's what you're proposing to test). Not even truck engines taken out and running on a test cell. But "install" them (a very significant and important word here), and it does apply.

The test cell NESHAP (PPPPP) is for testing truck engines. This one is a major source NESHAP (10 tons per year of any one HAP, 25 tons per year combined of all HAPs). But it is potential to emit based for determining applicability, and your PTE will likely be over the limit. Though you could take a synthetic minor limit and hopefully stay under the applicability threshold. However, there is also the 1/2 actual rule of thumb used by EPA and the states. If your actual emissions are less than 1/2 the applicability, you do not need to take synthetic minor limits to avoid the rule. You're simply too small.

Pay close attention to the applicability of both NESHAPS (ZZZZ and PPPPP) and the NSPS (JJJJ and IIII). The definitions of when an engine is installed, or is mobile. You want to be very well versed on these applicabilities. Don't play smug and cute here. For it's not if you think you're not subject, it's if the regulators think you're not subject. I.e., you can think your tax exempt, but if the IRS doesn't agree, you lose.

Assuming you do "install" an engine, so RICE applies:

Rice intertwines with the various NSPS (JJJJ and IIII for example) and goes down to 5 hp. Most of it is engine HP triggered. Kw (electric) actually doesn't come into play (though a number of outside guidance documents incorrectly connect the dots to electric power).

End use triggers different requirements (electric generation vs direct mechanical power, emergency vs non emergency, where the electricity generated goes, hours of operation per year, etc). This is where I was cautioning you about how you load your unit. Don't think not selling electricity back to the grid exempts you from RICE, it does not, it just changes what requirements you are subject to (NSPS requrements as well).

Modify the engine under RICE (change fuel, change operating parameters, alter maintenance from OEM spec, retune the engine, etc), and you now essentially have to CARB certify the new configuration. This is one of the things I think you're going to run afoul of, from your description of what you're testing for and hoping to optimize.

I use 1500 watt space heaters to test run my 10kw diesel generator. They are cheap, easy to hook up and have a consistent load. You would need about 30 of them. Walmart probably has them for $15 a piece.