Peabody said:SV reX said:In reply to pheller :
I think you just said that it would be normal, and not "messed up" if tradesmen were desperate and undercharged for their labor...
He did not.
There's a little thing called the market that decides what the appropriate price is. That's normal.
The market has determined the current rates.
Steve_Jones said:pheller said:What's the alternative?
I'd also be ok with the entire population to get a huge pay bump so people could afford housing.
You do understand that if everyone gets a pay bump, housing prices would go up right?
I am surprised the higher end houses are not sitting though. I've seen a good number of $1.5-$2m cash deals in the last few months, that's nuts.
Real estate is a good place to park cash if you have concerns about the economy. Even if it's bought at a slightly inflated cost, it won't get hit as hard as stocks and in the long term will almost always rebound to where it was.
If I had a couple of million in cash lying around, I'd probably be buying property as well.
Toyman! said:Steve_Jones said:pheller said:What's the alternative?
I'd also be ok with the entire population to get a huge pay bump so people could afford housing.
You do understand that if everyone gets a pay bump, housing prices would go up right?
I am surprised the higher end houses are not sitting though. I've seen a good number of $1.5-$2m cash deals in the last few months, that's nuts.
Real estate is a good place to park cash if you have concerns about the economy. Even if it's bought at a slightly inflated cost, it won't get hit as hard as stocks and in the long term will almost always rebound to where it was.
If I had a couple of million in cash lying around, I'd probably be buying property as well.
Than you would be part of the "problem" too. You can't do that.
on another active board I'm on we use Purple to denote sarcasm. Maybe I need to start doing that here
I think there is a difference between 'individual tradesmen' and 'corporate tradesmen', and some difference in profit taking.
An individual may be charging $40-$50 dollars and hour. The 'corporate' company might be charging $125 per hour while paying the worker $30. I see it in car repair, A/C repair, etc. I know there a lot of costs to running a business, and some more if the business gets large, but .... Business owners have the $1M homes, while the workers rent. I'm told its because the business owners are taking all the risk. Maybe so. And maybe that's right.
I'm not smart enough to have an answer.
For the record I would probably be classified as both a tradesman, and an investor. My car hobby has been funded well by past real estate investments. The trade work fulfills me but wouldn't support a family.
Toyman! said:Real estate is a good place to park cash if you have concerns about the economy. Even if it's bought at a slightly inflated cost, it won't get hit as hard as stocks and in the long term will almost always rebound to where it was.
Ugh, I hope this is wrong, unless "where it was" means '80s values...current home prices are a disaster in themselves, and a crash back to sanity is sorely needed.
And yes, it must be stated unironically that treating houses as investments instead of housing is a key element of what got us into this situation in the first place.
pheller said:What's the alternative?
I know you don't want to hear this, but the alternative is to BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.
You've been asked many questions in this thread that you have not answered. Have you filed a complaint with Code Enforcement? Have you contacted your elected officials? Do you know the reasons the property has been sitting idle? Etc, etc. You haven't answered any of those questions.
You sir, are part of the problem.
You've had multiple people in this thread who are knowledgeable about the dynamics of situations like this tell you that your perspective is likely incorrect, but you keep ignoring their input and pointing the finger at imaginary big bad "investors".
The alternative is to spend less energy pointing the finger and bitching on the internet about a perceived problem, and more energy engaged with addressing the solutions IRL locally.
Form an Ad Hoc committee. Campaign for an elected official with an approach you agree with. Start a non-profit. Call your Commissioner, your planning department, or local Code Enforcement. Serve on the board or committee of the University that is buying the land. Get involved.
But most importantly, LISTEN. Because when you get involved, it is very likely you will find there are a lot of people who disagree with your positions. And the solution will not be to get on the internet and bitch about those people.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Houses ARE investments. They are a safe investment when times are turbulent and always have been. People that don't think of their house as an investment are probably not that financially stable.
In reply to bobzilla :
A house should only be an investment in the sense that a car or a fridge is an investment. A thing you can buy that will provide something you need, in this case housing, but not expected to appreciate unless changes are made to it to add value, or it acquires some kind of historical value, or there is some kind of shortage. Seeing a house as an asset expected to appreciate like stock in a company is a relatively recent phenomenon which is more of a symptom of the runaway home prices that led to (and accelerated us toward) today's situation.
Toyman! said:Steve_Jones said:pheller said:What's the alternative?
I'd also be ok with the entire population to get a huge pay bump so people could afford housing.
You do understand that if everyone gets a pay bump, housing prices would go up right?
I am surprised the higher end houses are not sitting though. I've seen a good number of $1.5-$2m cash deals in the last few months, that's nuts.
Real estate is a good place to park cash if you have concerns about the economy. Even if it's bought at a slightly inflated cost, it won't get hit as hard as stocks and in the long term will almost always rebound to where it was.
If I had a couple of million in cash lying around, I'd probably be buying property as well.
I understand that but these are people buying single family houses to live in, not investment properties. These houses were $2M when they sold 15 years ago, so if it is for investment, theyre doing it wrong.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Pretty much what Bob said.
Houses have always been investments. They have always been a place to park money. Pricing is making them better than ever. Doubly true with Class A office space taking the hit it is due to WFH.
It's also a great place to leverage cash you have tied up elsewhere. Buy a house with financing, rent it out to cover the expenses, and in 15 years or so you have doubled your money even if the house doesn't increase in value.
I'm looking at a 5-unit condo now.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
At 7% interest rates, buying an expensive house for cash is saving more than the market is currently returning.
A 7% return on your money is a pretty good investment today.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
Could be they just dumped a primary residence for cash and don't want to claim that tax exemption or can't. Then they have to dump that money back into a primary residence or cough up the capital gains on it.
In reply to Toyman! :
There's so many reasons/options that don't include "evil rich people" that so many don't seem to want to acknowledge.
In reply to pheller :
Yea I guess that's the problem. If we all got paid better, that would likely spark more inflation.
The Fed really wants to push down inflation by seeing both wage and employment numbers taper off.
Meanwhile, there is still plenty of profit to be made if you hold land, rentals, etc.
How do we get more affordable housing without skyrocketing unemployment or continued inflation?
Millions of people can't move from hot employment centers to places with no jobs, unless there is some incentive for businesses to allow millions of workers to work remote.
There is no blanket solution for what you want. There is no formula make everyone equally happy. There are plenty to make everyone equally miserable. You are entitled to the pursuit of happiness, but you need to catch it on your own. This is a personal issue. You don't have solutions, you have excuses. There is more opportunity today than any time in history for the individual to get ahead. Lots of jobs to be had, lots of side gigs available to earn extra money. Lots of information available at your fingertips to learn how to manage your money. Any individual that is willing to work hard and make sacrifices can buy a home. It might not be today, but it might be never if they don't get on the right path. It's not a magic formula, it's a well defined path. You can either keep wasting you time looking for shortcuts, or you can just get on the path. Yes, sometimes the path is shorter when home prices are lower, sometimes it's longer. But it's the same path.
bobzilla said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
Houses ARE investments. They are a safe investment when times are turbulent and always have been. People that don't think of their house as an investment are probably not that financially stable.
OK, Look at this one.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2-Brett-Manor-Ct-Cockeysville-MD-21030/36397058_zpid/
Sold for $2M in 2010. Sold again in 2010 for $1.6 (I know the guy that bout it for $1.6). He spent over $1M on improvements. It's now for sale for $2.6. He will lose money. Not all are investments.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/39-Brett-Manor-Ct-Cockeysville-MD-21030/36397520_zpid/
Sold in 2021 for $1.6, now for sale for $1.9. IF he gets full price, he is still losing money.
I guarantee both of those people are financially stable, but sometime E36 M3 happens
In reply to GameboyRMH :
A house is an investment in the community, not in a pile of wood and drywall. If the community flourishes, the investment grows. If the community falters, the investment loses. That is why houses appreciate more where people want to live.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" theory. We need to remember some people don't have boots.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
They are over a long enough timeline. Real estate has never been the guaranteed quick money way. It's almost always been a long term financial decision. Flipping houses is risky as hell and very dependent on the area, market and economy.
EDIT: from your first listing:
10 years from 1.4M to 1.9M, that's a 500k bump, or 26% return on the investment in 10 years.
Appleseed said:In reply to Boost_Crazy :
The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" theory. We need to remember some people don't have boots.
Plenty of people with no boots doing everything they can to come to this Country everyday. They see the opportunity not the excuses.
In reply to Appleseed :
That's an issue of assistance, not home ownership.
I spent 10 years as a full time volunteer for Habitat for Humanity building hundreds of houses for low income homeowners. Though our mission was to "eliminate poverty housing worldwide", we also had to recognize we were a HOME OWNERSHIP program, and some people are simply not ready to be home owners.
It's uncomfortable, but true.
Decent housing may be considered at times a human right. Home ownership is not.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
And by Boost's rational, every Mexican immigrant family should own at least ten houses, because they are the hardest working MF's I've ever met.
I'm not disagreeing with either of you, but as all things such as this, it isn't as simple as work hard.
Boost_Crazy said:There is no blanket solution for what you want. There is no formula make everyone equally happy. There are plenty to make everyone equally miserable. You are entitled to the pursuit of happiness, but you need to catch it on your own. This is a personal issue. You don't have solutions, you have excuses. There is more opportunity today than any time in history for the individual to get ahead. Lots of jobs to be had, lots of side gigs available to earn extra money. Lots of information available at your fingertips to learn how to manage your money. Any individual that is willing to work hard and make sacrifices can buy a home. It might not be today, but it might be never if they don't get on the right path. It's not a magic formula, it's a well defined path. You can either keep wasting you time looking for shortcuts, or you can just get on the path. Yes, sometimes the path is shorter when home prices are lower, sometimes it's longer. But it's the same path.
We're at a point now where the path may not be traversable by a diligent person within an average lifetime, and a large fraction of the population (and the majority of multiple generations) all has the same supposedly personal problem. To me that sounds like a systemic problem affecting society in general.
Boost_Crazy said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
A house is an investment in the community, not in a pile of wood and drywall. If the community flourishes, the investment grows. If the community falters, the investment loses. That is why houses appreciate more where people want to live.
Then why is there this background level of price increases that affects all communities regardless of how they're doing, and why is it so expensive to live in a place like San Francisco that has little going for it at this point other than high-end jobs at tech companies that pay enough to afford the local real estate? The fact that home prices can be, and in large part have been affected by engineering artificial shortages shows that a house is not just an investment in the community. Furthermore, the reward for making a community flourish would be making it unaffordable, likely pushing the people who made it flourish or at least their children out (See also: the artists SF used to have).
In reply to SV reX :
Believe me, a friend of mine is one of them. Got approved for $300k. So what does he do? Does he even entertain my suggestion to find a home for half or even 2/3rds than? Hell no. Buys a house for $300k. No extra money for...anything. I'm no financial expert, and even I could see that's a bad idea a mile away. He definitely was/isn't ready to be a homeowner.
In reply to bobzilla :
Of course that is not counting the $200k pool/landscaping and the $100K cost to sell it, but that is nit picking. I am just pointing out not all houses, even those in good areas, go up. Most houses are investments, but people acting like they are getting E36 M3 on because they cant buy a house and it's the only reason they are not in a better situation. There are other ways to move up the ladder.
In reply to Appleseed :
No, but people who haven't lived on the bottom for a while, if at all, think they know how to get up from it better than the people living it.
More opportunity than ever to make a buck, but a buck is worth less now than ever before.
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