f150 FTL

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/03/by-the-numbers-may-2008-f-150-falls-edition/

How did that slip by me? That's HUGE in the motoring world... HUGE!

It is huge. I also think it shows that we might be facing a major (and I mean major) shift in what we buy and drive.

did you guys seen how much Hummer's sales fell by? i'll be honest, i get some satisfaction from seeing hummer fail, especially to that extent

I wonder why Jag sales were up so much. Any opinions out there?

and BMW is down .7%? I guess they sold ten less cars last year.

Personally, I am not surprised that the big three's market is in the toilet. Save from the Ford Focus, none of them offer a nice little car. Chrysler killed the Neon for that nasty Caliber, GM has the Cobolt, which while nice in two door SS trim is just nasty as the base 4 door..

It is no wonder Mini sales are up. I hope more makers learn from them, honda, and Hyundai. Quality small cars for a decent price just works.

stumpmj wrote: I wonder why Jag sales were up so much. Any opinions out there?

new model lineup, both a new XJ and XK...the XK is just sexy.

Even used truck prices are in the toilet. It's a great time to shop a tow vehicle.

Why are Jags up? Mercedes too - one reason is the target customers aren't as affected by the current times. Pass the Grey Poupon, would you Jeeves?

GeneralHavoc wrote: Why are Jags up? Mercedes too - one reason is the target customers aren't as affected by the current times. Pass the Grey Poupon, would you Jeeves?

very true..

Sales of 11liter marine diesels for pleasure boats are strong. These people just don't feel the pinch.

GM down 30%. The domestics are getting killed by the collapse of the new SUV market.

I feel bad for people I see driving SUVs and big cars now. Even my dad has been "stealing" my Z3 from me for a good portion of the last month so that he doesn't have to drive the 745Li. ---> I've been "suffering" in the Miata.

Ford is really hurting. They were putting a lot of their hopes on their newly redesigned (but, for now, delayed) F-150. That was a bad move. Focus should have been on, um, the Focus - yeah - and cars like that.

Shouldn't everybody have a car that competes directly with the Prius? It's insanity not to have something just like it. Toyota is being hurt by their trucks and SUVs (maybe their big car, the Avalon, if they still make it), but they can't keep Priuses on the lots.

confuZion3 wrote: but they can't keep Priuses on the lots.

...because everyone is stupid

toyota was dumb and released a new sequoia last year. I think I read an article where the marketing folks were like, well we've tooled up and built a bunch so we might as well give it a go. All the while trying to figure out how not to lose their shirts in it. I don't think the new tundra is doing well either.

All the big companies have neglected the small car too long. They didn't sense this shift in the market early enough, they couldn't react to it quick enough, and they are now paying the price.

Strizzo wrote:

confuZion3 wrote: but they can't keep Priuses on the lots.

...because everyone is stupid

What car would you recommend over a prius new with fuel economy as a main concern over the prius at 23k or less? It seats 4 no problem, has a ton of cargo when the rear seat isnt occupied and more than most when it does have people in the back. My mom, who owns one, regularly gets 48mpg doing mixed driving. I seriously dont know how it was a "stupid" decision to pick that vehicle. Maybe its ugly and slow but she really doesnt care about those 2 things.

GlennS wrote: What car would you recommend over a prius new with fuel economy as a main concern over the prius at 23k or less? It seats 4 no problem, has a ton of cargo when the rear seat isnt occupied and more than most when it does have people in the back. My mom, who owns one, regularly gets 48mpg doing mixed driving. I seriously dont know how it was a "stupid" decision to pick that vehicle. Maybe its ugly and slow but she really doesnt care about those 2 things.

Fit, Civic, Yaris, Focus, compact Hyundai. Most any reasonably efficient compact.

The money saved on fuel efficiency with the hybrid is more than offset by the initial purchase price, and the cost of replacement batteries. These batteries are toxic waste that need to be carefully disposed of.

Economically the hybrid will cost more and you will never break even. Environmentally, I'm not sure if it's a wash or not. There are PZEV vehicles with traditional engines.

If people want to spend their money on an un-economical hybrid though, that's fine with me. They can take the hit to test a young technology and pay money for R&D.

I would not really recommend a Prius to anyone for the simple fact that it is the first iteration of this type of vehicle. They will only get better. The new hybrids that are coming out in the next few years will likely be big improvements.

BTW - Honda also has a hybrid CIVIC, it just doesn't look like a hybrid. That is half the "deal" with Prius's, they look like a hybrid.

Salanis wrote:

GlennS wrote: What car would you recommend over a prius new with fuel economy as a main concern over the prius at 23k or less? It seats 4 no problem, has a ton of cargo when the rear seat isnt occupied and more than most when it does have people in the back. My mom, who owns one, regularly gets 48mpg doing mixed driving. I seriously dont know how it was a "stupid" decision to pick that vehicle. Maybe its ugly and slow but she really doesnt care about those 2 things.

Economically the hybrid will cost more and you will never break even.

prove it using the real world fuel economy of another 5 door hatch of similar size.........

fit is smaller, civic dosen't have a hatch version. 5 door golf tdi maybe, but then purchase price would be more than the prius.

aircooled wrote: I would not really recommend a Prius to anyone for the simple fact that it is the first iteration of this type of vehicle.

actually 2nd.

ignorant wrote: prove it using the real world fuel economy of another 5 door hatch of similar size......... fit is smaller, civic dosen't have a hatch version. 5 door golf tdi maybe, but then purchase price would be more than the prius.

Okay. I'll take the Toyota Matrix, which is as close to a non-hybrid Prius as you can get. There is just over a $5k price difference between the two vehicles.

The Matrix is rated at 26/32 for a manual. Let's say it averages 29mpg combined. The Prius is rated at 46mpg combined.

I'm going to use the statistic that a hybrid battery system lasts 5 years, and costs $5k to replace (someone pull up real numbers on this?). The Prius has to then save $1k/year on gas.

Let's assume 15k miles/year. And $4/gallon gas.

The Matrix will use 517 gallons; costing $2068 dollars.

The Prius will use 326 gallons; costing $1304 dolalrs.

The Prius will cost $300/year more.

At $5/gallon, the Matrix fueling the Matrix will cost $2585 and the Prius will cost $1630. That's $45/year more for the Prius. You still haven't saved money.

If you look at non-toyotas, the Focus starts at about $14.5k and is rated at 24/35mpg (I don't know if they still have a hatch though). If we look at a Honda fit, which will probably do the job almost as well as the Matrix/Prius, it starts at $14k and is rated at 28/34/31.

Plus, my understanding is that hybrids don't get as as good real-world mileage (compared to EPA estimates) as traditional gas cars do. So, that barely breaking even won't even happen.

Edit: I just did some real research. Apparently Prius batteries cost $3k and are actually rated to last the lifespan of the car. So, at $4/gallon (I think gas will go back down some) it will take a bit under 4 years to break even, compared to a Toyota Matrix.

the fit is barely smaller, if at all. it may have smaller outside dimensions, but it has a real wagon-style hatch that makes better use of its footprint than the prius.

edmunds.com just launched an online calculator so you can figure out how long you have to drive a more expensive car that gets better mileage to break even.

$300 dollars a year more. Ha

http://go.ucsusa.org/hybridcenter/incentives.cfm

there is a bill to remove the 60,000 pc cap currently in play. So that means a $3150 tax credit will apply. Plus other local tax credits such as the $1,000 from certain areas in california. Also the ability to get Worker provided bonuses, such as the $5,000 from Timberland just for driving a hybrid.. Make it a win for the prius.

Sorry.

Or...or...you could buy my 95 Civic DL 5 Speed if it was for sale.

KBB = $2,700ish and it gets a real world 38 mpg (AC blowing, 80+ mph cruise speed, even mix of city / highway) on 87 octane.

In 13 years and 204,000 miles it's only required fresh half shafts and a water pump...even the clutch is original.

Every single thing works perfectly and there's zero squeeking, rattling, or fading.

i thought we were discussing new cars.

ignorant wrote: $300 dollars a year more. Ha http://go.ucsusa.org/hybridcenter/incentives.cfm there is a bill to remove the 60,000 pc cap currently in play. So that means a $3150 tax credit will apply. Plus other local tax credits such as the $1,000 from certain areas in california. Also the ability to get Worker provided bonuses, such as the $5,000 from Timberland just for driving a hybrid.. Make it a win for the prius. Sorry.

well until that happens, its not going to be helping anyone. even if its passed tomorrow, it won't go into effect until september. to be fair, job specific bonuses can't be counted towards a real world example. its a miniscule part of the population that even works for timberland, much less that own a prius. also are these tax credits for the purchase of a hybrid or the owning of one? iirc, the tax credit was only available in the same tax year as the purchase date.

I will say, that using tax breaks to make a vehicle economically viable not a robust product strategy Unless you've got awesome marketing... wait a minute.

up the mileage to 20k or more.. or $5 a gallon gas and the advantage goes away..