For all you domestic haters

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090717/AUTO01/907170349/1148/auto01/Detroit+automakers+gain+in+new+J.D.+Power+survey

When it comes to making reliable and attractive vehicles, Detroit's automakers say they are closing the gap with import brands -- and J.D. Power and Associates issued the latest in a string of surveys Thursday backing up that claim. On a scale of zero to 1,000, American car brands, led by General Motor Co.'s Cadillac and Ford Motor Co.'s Lincoln, lag foreign brands by only five points in J.D. Power's 2009 Automotive Performance Execution and Layout Study measuring new car owners' satisfaction with the performance, features and layout of their vehicles. That compares with a 15-point difference last year. "On a thousand-point scale, we're talking pretty fine differences," said David Sargent, vice president of automotive research at J.D. Power. Excluding premium brands, domestics have a slight edge over their foreign rivals, according to the survey of nearly 81,000 people in the first 90 days since they bought or leased their vehicle. J.D. Power recently issued its annual Initial Quality Study that also showed the domestics narrowing the gap with their foreign-based competitors. Surveys by other firms, such as AutoPacific Inc. and Strategic Vision, also conclude that domestics have become more competitive in recent years. But, as frustrated U.S. auto executives have come to realize, "truly closing the perception gap takes time," Sargent said. "They didn't lose their original image overnight and they won't regain it overnight." He estimated that it takes several years for the perception of a brand to catch up with the reality. Derrick Kuzak, Ford's group vice president of global product development, said the Dearborn automaker has been working hard to improve the basic reliability and performance of Ford vehicles and is now trying to equip models with features designed to delight the customer. "We're still consumed with basic quality, but we're also now very focused on providing appeal and excitement," Kuzak said. Ford captured top scores in two segments in J.D. Power's study, with the F-150 truck and Flex crossover. Honda Motor Co.'s Honda brand, Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz, and Nissan Motor Co.'s Nissan brand also captured two segments. Among the other findings: • Chrysler Group LLC's Dodge was the most-improved brand, followed by GM's Pontiac, Buick and Cadillac. • The Dodge Ram, Buick Lucerne and Ford F-150 truck were the most-improved models. • Volkswagen models led in four segments -- more than any other brand -- with the CC, GTI and Passat cars and Tiguan compact SUV. • Mercedes' S-Class sedan won the highest score of any model, but Porsche was the highest-scoring brand for the fifth year in a row. • Improved fuel efficiency, coupled with lower fuel prices, helped nudge the average APEAL score to 779 from 770 in 2008. For all-new and redesigned models, the average score was 11 points higher at 790.

Say, is that several domestic brands above Honda/Toyota/Subaru/Nissan/Hyundai?

Discuss.

The domestics have made great strides, that's for sure. At least from the Chrysler side of things (I work with them every day) there is still room for improvement when compared to Hondas etc, no matter what JD Power says.

Since JD Power considers brake dust to be a quality issue I pay zero attention to them.

I don't need JD Powers to tell me the quality of the Domestics, all I have to do is drive them.

While they are making great strides they are still so far behind as to be in a different class.

Listen to the squeaks and rattles then give them 30k-50k miles and count the pieces that have fallen off, broken, faded, cracked, etc.

One point: This isn't a quality survey, it's a "How happy are you with your new car's features and performance?" survey.

Here's the initial quality (new car) data:

And the vehicle dependability (3 year old cars) data:

Now you may carry on with why your single, anecdotal experience is more valid than a survey of 80,000-plus people.

Because it doesn't inlcude brake dust!!!!!!

I've never understood the APEAL study, or rather, I've never understood the thinking behind the owners. You spend 20-30K on a brand new car and you're not happy with the performance, execution and/or layout? Why did you buy the damn thing? Seems really weird to me.

I also think the IQS is skewed by the finickiness and expectations of owners (look at the disparity between Toyota and Scion, or Ford and Lincoln).

I'm thinking I'll continue to buy cars from companies that didn't steal money out of my pocket. Thanks though.

^ Or Hyundai and Kia.... Nice to see Hyundai in the top 4! Go crooked H!

carguy123 wrote: I don't need JD Powers to tell me the quality of the Domestics, all I have to do is drive them. While they are making great strides they are still so far behind as to be in a different class. Listen to the squeaks and rattles then give them 30k-50k miles and count the pieces that have fallen off, broken, faded, cracked, etc.

YEa just like your BMW, AUDI, or Vdub will consistently be in the shop for reliability issues in the drivetrain. I'll take cheezy interior parts and plastics with a reliable drivetrain over some fancy euro trash interior and an unstable drivetrain.

poopshovel wrote: I'm thinking I'll continue to buy cars from companies that didn't steal money out of my pocket. Thanks though.

If you want to be truthful, they didn't steal anything. They asked for help, your ELECTED OFFICIALS decided to fork over your hard earned money despite your protests. So technically you should be peeved at your congreeman/woman.

Just clarifying...

Bobzilla wrote:

poopshovel wrote: I'm thinking I'll continue to buy cars from companies that didn't steal money out of my pocket. Thanks though.

If you want to be truthful, they didn't steal anything. They asked for help, your ELECTED OFFICIALS decided to fork over your hard earned money despite your protests. So technically you should be peeved at your congreeman/woman. Just clarifying...

true story.

You know how this is going to turn out.

Miata?

The Brown Stig wrote: Miata?

Nah, given the context of the thread....it's gotta be the P71....(sigh).

I just bought an 06 GTI and I've only been in for warranty work three times. Still a better sport compact than anything the big 2.5 can offer.

One was a TSB fix for the stereo, one was a recall for the PCV system and an AC pressure switch, and one was for them breaking my oil cap when they did the PCV fix (hooray for dealer service departments).

When I was in the car business, it always amazed me the number of people who will buy a car without even driving it. Some didn't even sit in it. This was on new and used.

My 2000 Ford ZX2/SR has NEVER been back to the dealer for warranty or recall. Now my Liberty is another story although now it is running fine

I don't pay much attention to these studies. Domestic owners will always lean to domestic cars and import owners will lean to imports. It's called brand loyalty. People will lie to themsleves so they feel like they got ripped off. When someone does switch brands they will often cite dealership experiences as to why they started looking elsewhere for a different brand. That being said I won't buy a new Chevy because I despise the local dealership. And while strides have been made recently, the '05 Silverado that I used to own couldn't hold a candle to a Tundra.

How did they determine what the industry average is?

Some of the numbers don't add up.

Anyway,in my independent study Subaru is always #1.Therefore I reject your reality and substitute my own.

skruffy wrote: I just bought an 06 GTI and I've only been in for warranty work three times. Still a better sport compact than anything the big 2.5 can offer. One was a TSB fix for the stereo, one was a recall for the PCV system and an AC pressure switch, and one was for them breaking my oil cap when they did the PCV fix (hooray for dealer service departments).

Wow, only been in three times hey? That's awesome compared to my luck.

Let's see my last few vehicles.

09 Taurus X has been in….wait a min I'm counting here…… Oh yeah, ZERO times
08 Volvo once
08 Focus ….wait a min I'm counting again… Oh yeah, ZERO times
00 Previous Focus ….wait a min I'm counting again… Oh yeah, once in 70k miles
My wife's 04 Toyota Highlander ……..Counting………counting……….. Sorry I've run out of fingers and toes for just the warranty work, and at 100k miles the required bill would have been $4k, now I know it was a Toyota so I should cut it some slack and remember that it was only minor stuff life a drive shaft center bearing, rear wheel bearing, heater control unit, steering shaft etc etc just minor E36 M3 that doesn't matter. FYI, I swapped the driveshaft for a used one so I could trade that monumental POS in ASAP. I looked around online and found a breakers yard that had 3 of them in stock so I went to get one. ALL THREE had the same FUBARD center bearing so I now I was just unlucky to have it myself, Turdbota quality rules remember.

skruffy wrote: I just bought an 06 GTI and I've only been in for warranty work three times. Still a better sport compact than anything the big 2.5 can offer. One was a TSB fix for the stereo, one was a recall for the PCV system and an AC pressure switch, and one was for them breaking my oil cap when they did the PCV fix (hooray for dealer service departments).

Obviously that is subjective. I prefer our 07 GXP over the GTI. To each there own. Also, I currently own American, German, and Asian vehicles, so am by no means brand/country/whatever loyal.

The Brown Stig wrote: Miata?

Nope. Camaro

zoomx2 wrote: I don't pay much attention to these studies. Domestic owners will always lean to domestic cars and import owners will lean to imports. It's called brand loyalty.

Then why have the numbers changed from heavily favoring imports to being fairly balanced as we see now? That's happened over the last 5 years or so.

The falling popularity of Fast and the Furious movies?

all i know is that when i had my acura, it went through a couple window regs, had the 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6 gearsets/synchros replaced, a very annoying battery failure (was fine, drove to the store, still fine, drove home, tried to move car 5 min after getting home, completely dead, had to be push started. i know batteries aren't usually part of reliabilty complaints but this one was like two years old.), numerous rattles/buzzing things. it also had an unreasonable amount of tq steer for a car with only 130 ft-lbs of tq.

only a battery, alternator, and TO bearing/slave cylinder/clutch on the f150 in 7 years of driving