Fundamentalists are just plain embarrassing -Page 6| Off-Topic Discussion forum |

mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/12 7:32 p.m.

I have no problems with religion. One of our best family friends is a now retired monsignor with the RCC. He was a canon lawyer (he decided who's marriages got annuled and who's did not) and is one of the softest spoken and gentle people you will ever meet. He is everything a priest should be.

Even though he carries the title of monsignor.. he calls himself "Father" as he says.. he earned that title.. the other one they gave him.

If all religious people were like him.. the world would be a MUCH better place.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker UltimaDork
7/6/12 8:11 p.m.

mad_machine wrote: ...One of our best family friends is a now retired monsignor... If all religious people were like him.. the world would be a MUCH better place.

Retired? I wholeheartedly agree!

mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/7/12 1:15 a.m.

wow GPS that is cherry picking my post worthy of somebody else around here.

Curmudgeon MegaDork
7/7/12 9:10 a.m.

I generally am very tolerant of religion and religious people as long as they are tolerant of me and of others. That's my main beef with what's called 'fundamentalists', in many cases they are quite intolerant (such as the Westboro wackos). Or like the one in the linked story who figured faith based whatever would apply only to christians.

Maybe it's just me... but in my recent situation had a monsignor/father/etc been involved and told me I had to stay married, well, that would never have flown. No matter how nice or fine a person they may be, I am not real sure how someone on the outside of my life looking in can believe they have the power to tell me 'nope you have to stay married' and thus make my life a living hell.

SVreX MegaDork
7/7/12 9:45 a.m.

There's no way I'd call Westboro "Fundamentalists".

"Extremists", perhaps. "Idiots", certainly.

What I am trying to share is that there are a lot of churches that would call themselves "Fundamentalist Christian". Most of them are reasonably harmless, peaceable, decent people. They are most certainly conservative, but they are not extremists, and they do not threaten most of you.

To lump them together with Westboro, or pedophile priests, or extreme Creationist Zealots is wrong.

Oh, and Curmudgeon, mad_machine didn't say the Monsignor told people they had to stay married. He said he decided which marriages got annulled. I'm pretty sure your marriage was not annulled, and that you don't care about that.

Fit_Is_Slo (ceasarromero) HalfDork
7/7/12 11:34 a.m.

http://dudeism.com/ You can check it out of you want to, if not it's like your choice man!

Curmudgeon MegaDork
7/7/12 2:25 p.m.

SVreX wrote: Oh, and Curmudgeon, mad_machine didn't say the Monsignor told people they had to stay married. He said he decided which marriages got annulled. I'm pretty sure your marriage was not annulled, and that you don't care about that.

Since the Catholic church does not (officially) sanction divorce, annulment is pretty much the only church sanctioned way out of a bad relationship. If I were a Catholic, in the situation I was in and I had to go to the monsignor to get permission to bail, well let's just say that sucks massively.

Our monsignor literally has the power of life and death, if you stop to think about it.

SVreX MegaDork
7/7/12 2:36 p.m.

In reply to Curmudgeon:

I know plenty of divorced Catholics. I also know several remarried ones. Official church policy is that they are welcome to worship, but not receive the eucharist.

I married a Catholic. I have never been Catholic. Officially, she was supposed to "raise the children Catholic". We did not. She was still a Catholic, and participated freely without restriction.

The church has guidelines, but they don't "tell people to stay married".

Curmudgeon MegaDork
7/7/12 2:46 p.m.

To be denied the eucharist (communion) is to be called out as a sinner. That is the stick the Catholic church uses on its members to force them to stay married: 'if you sin by getting divorced, you will be excluded from the most sacred rite we have'.

So if you are in a completely untenable situation and get divorced, you are a sinner. To be a sinner is to fall short of the glory of God and thus quite possibly go to hell.

Got it.

I'm outta here.

SVreX MegaDork
7/7/12 3:29 p.m.

That's probably why you are not a Catholic.

Last time I checked, the Bible says, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". So, I'd have issue with that entire concept if anyone said it.

Maybe that's why I'm not Catholic.

Anti-stance Dork
7/7/12 3:46 p.m.

Divorce is the exact reason my father stopped going to Catholic church.

scardeal Dork
7/9/12 10:39 a.m.

Just a note from someone (me) who has a little knowledge of canon law, Catholic theology, etc. regarding a Catholic understanding of annulment/marriage/divorce:

Basic Scripture verses - Mt 19:3-12 ... I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery...

If you believe in Scripture, the Catholic Church's stand on divorce and remarriage seems pretty... biblical.

Annulment - annulment is declaring that there was a flaw in the marriage, and, thus, the marriage itself is null and void: either the persons could not properly enter into a marriage, or that there was an issue with the consent. The assumption by the Church is that the marriage is valid unless proven invalid.

Civil Divorce - On occasion, those who are validly married may have to avail themselves of a civil divorce for the safety and well-being of themselves and the other members of the family. Because they are still sacramentally married, they are not free to remarry. So long as they do not seek to remarry, they are still free to receive sacraments in the Church.

So, Catholicism is hard and it makes real demands on your life, especially on big life choices. Much of what it teaches isn't popular. The way society has been going, it's crossing the threshold of being actively at odds with society. I think it's pretty clear that society is the one that's changing. The Church has a definite understanding of who man is and how he relates to God and to the world. It acts and teaches in response to that understanding.

I'm debating with myself as to how to close this thought in an appropriate manner for the forum. It's clear that many people here have a beef with religion and the Catholic Church in particular. So, maybe I should just say that it is my hope that we can all find the truth of who we are in a metaphysical sense and live our lives in accordance with the demands of that truth.

SVreX MegaDork
7/9/12 11:59 a.m.

In reply to scardeal:

That's a pretty good summary. I agree, the Catholic church is quite consistent in their positions.

One observation... the verse you quoted is out of context. The complete verses (NIV) read:

Jesus (in Mt 19: 3-12) said: 3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” 10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

I agree that you correctly stated the Catholic Church's position. But I would suggest that the scripture opens the door to the possibility that some are not called to this life.

Vs 11 and 12 certainly suggest something different.

We agree, it's a big calling that not everyone can achieve.

So, based on the Catholic position, an annulment should only be necessary when a person seeks to become remarried, not divorced, right?

I also suppose that technically a wedding that was not performed in a church would then technically never have been sacramentally joined (they were joined by the State, but not joined together by God). Does that mean it would not need to be annulled? Honest question- not flounder bait.

scardeal Dork
7/9/12 12:45 p.m.

SVreX wrote: In reply to scardeal: I agree that you correctly stated the Catholic Church's position. But I would suggest that the scripture opens the door to the possibility that some are not called to this life. Vs 11 and 12 certainly suggest something different. We agree, it's a big calling that not everyone can achieve. So, based on the Catholic position, an annulment should only be necessary when a person seeks to become remarried, not divorced, right? I also suppose that technically a wedding that was not performed in a church would then technically never have been sacramentally joined (they were joined by the State, but not joined together by God). Does that mean it would not need to be annulled? Honest question- not flounder bait.

(If it's not obvious, I'm speaking from a Catholic frame of reference...)

Yes, some are not called to the married life. There are certainly those who are called to ministry that precludes them from marriage, eg. priesthood, brothers, sisters, nuns, monks, consecrated laypersons. There are also those who are incapable of contracting marriage validly, eg eunuchs/impotent persons, those who are so severely mentally handicapped that they cannot understand or fulfill the requirements of marriage, etc. (The latter instance, I'm speaking of those like my wife's aunt who is in her 50s, but still has the mind of a 5-6 year old. A cousin of mine is developmentally disabled, but is able to hold a job at a supermarket. I would err on saying that he would be able to understand it enough. I wouldn't want to be the one to make the call on his case, though.)

There are also those who will be a better person living as a bachelor or "old maid".

I'm not 100% sure how to answer your question about when they should seek an annulment, but I think it prudent that they go through the annulment process before seeking to date again. Based on reports that I've heard, the annulment process, whatever the outcome, usually winds up being emotionally healing.

When a marriage is out of form, etc. (such as being a civil ceremony only) an annulment is usually a cut-and-dry case, but you still have to go through the process.

However, if you do have issues that include non-canonical form, etc., they can often have a dispensation granted before or after the fact, or if you get a civil ceremony, you can later have that blessed within the Church (sometimes pending an annulment, etc.).

SVreX MegaDork
7/10/12 6:52 a.m.

scardeal wrote: When a marriage is out of form, etc. (such as being a civil ceremony only) an annulment is usually a cut-and-dry case, but you still have to go through the process. However, if you do have issues that include non-canonical form, etc., they can often have a dispensation granted before or after the fact, or if you get a civil ceremony, you can later have that blessed within the Church (sometimes pending an annulment, etc.).

I think I am hearing you say this...

-A civil ceremony marriage is easy to get an annulment for, but it was never a marriage in the first place. (So, there should not be a reason for an annulment).

-But if you want, you can have your civil ceremony blessed by the church (making it a legitimate marriage) so that you can have it annulled.

-And that it is completely logical.

Catholic logic is a fairly unique animal. That's a rather illogical position to the average non-Catholic. I'm not trying to make a dig, just observing, and pretty sure this will be the general take on this board from the average reader. While I have respect for the position of the Catholic Church, I think positions like these are part of what makes so many people disrespect (or at least thoroughly misunderstand) the church.

It looks like there are all kind of semantic gymnastics to try to maintain the logic, or defend the position scripturally. It is consistent, but only if you view it through a very particular lens.

I think (regardless of the semantics) the majority of Catholics who seek annulment do it because they a) want a divorce and b) want to remain in the church and c) want the church to be OK with it when they start dating or want to get remarried.

I also think that (regardless of the official cannon interpretation) that a lot of parishes would apply the issue of annulment in a VERY different manner. I do not know of ANY church that would allow a divorced person who had not remarried to receive the sacraments if their marriage had not been annulled. (though my experience is very limited on this- to only a dozen or so churches).

nocones GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/10/12 7:15 a.m.

I'm not sure why people get so Hung up on catholic divorce. There are MANY other Biblicaly sound Jesus worshiping religions that don't choose to follow such a rigorous interpretation of Gods law. That said if you choose to he catholic and have a marriage sanctioned by the catholic religion you KNEW their rules going in. The difficulty of divorce is intended to strengthen the bond of marriage by making both parties involved think very hard about the seriousness and commitment to their vows. It is fundamentally no different than the vows made during any Christian marriage ceremony "until death do us part" is pretty serious buisness. The big difference is most other Christian religions have the view that your saved-ness is a personal mater between you and God and unaffected by your marital history. I know quite a few Divorced (one multiple times) priests that are very well respected as Godly individuals by the church community.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker UltimaDork
7/10/12 7:28 a.m.

Annulment: Something you can buy from a church to free your conscious up to bang other chicks. Also used to make it cool to bang other chicks with your very catholic mother and/or political constituents.

rotard Dork
7/10/12 8:08 a.m.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!