ransom wrote: I don't see the necessary link between order and intelligence. I think, perhaps, that I have the same sense of awe over there being no reason and no intelligence that you do for the intelligence you see in the order.
This is where I'll plug in my automatic response... pick up a copy of The Blind Watchmaker. It gives a really great treatment to the subject and it is a wholly informative read.
In reply to z31maniac:
Quick thought response:
Let's say you know your neighbor cuts his grass on thursdays at 7PM. You are going to have a party on thursday at 7PM. Can you plan on a way to keep your neighbor from disturbing the party with his mower?
There are numerous ways that you can account for his schedule/habits/whatever without zapping his brain (or deceiving him). (Eg soundproofing, cutting his grass for him, give him a reasonably silent mower, etc.) In the same way, God can have a plan without compromising your free will.
z31maniac wrote:scardeal wrote: because of free willI always hear of Christians speaking of "God's plan" for *insert desired person, business, country, etc* to the effect of "God wants this to happen and because he is all knowing and all powerful, he wills it to happen." That is completely incompatible with "Free Will" to me.
Free will's a funny one. My understanding of our intelligence and personality (and decision-making tendencies) as the result of the electro-chemical soup in our skulls basically suggests that we are "moist robots".
In short, if one believes in a creator, it's not much of a leap to give the created as much free will as anybody has, and still expect them to do certain things quite reliably.
And yet I agonize over the front suspension design for the resurrected 2002, because I don't feel like it's deterministic that I either will or won't build it properly...
In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:
Thanks!
I've bookmarked it. I'm behind on my reading, and my one go at Dawkins found him to be a little grandstand-ey for even a historically surly atheist like me, but this might be a little more specific; perhaps more of a study and less of an argument...
ransom wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: Thanks! I've bookmarked it. I'm behind on my reading, and my one go at Dawkins found him to be a little grandstand-ey for even a historically surly atheist like me, but this might be a little more specific; perhaps more of a study and less of an argument...
There are parts where he gets to beating a dead horse but there was a ton of real information in there eloquently presented so that a non-biologist could actually digest it.
BTW, so far, this has been a lot less heated a discussion than I've seen on more religious forums. (and that's a good thing)
scardeal wrote: BTW, so far, this has been a lot less heated a discussion than I've seen on more religious forums. (and that's a good thing)
We are not savages my good man. 
In reply to scardeal:
A little discretion goes a long way. Kudos to all parties.
ransom wrote: I don't see the necessary link between order and intelligence. I think, perhaps, that I have the same sense of awe over there being no reason and no intelligence that you do for the intelligence you see in the order.
I dunno. Doesn't really matter. You get the idea. We're pretty much on the same page. The bigger point - whatever it is, we're part of it. I've heard it said that our job is to be a healthy cell in the body of Christ. Again, applying Christian language to a kind of new age idea. But I like that.
I think there's a lot more doubt out there than people let on. Here's one I've been thinking about. There's a story in the news here today. Woman killed her kids and tried to kill herself. On the 911 call she said something about her kids being in heaven. So they put her in jail.
Think about it. We say we're overwhelmingly a Christian country, whatever that means. And if that's so, then we believe what this woman said is true. Those kids are in eternal peace and happiness with God. What more loving thing could a mother do for her children?
Why then do we put her in jail for it?
I just reread the God's Plan/Free Will thing from earlier...
To better answer the question:
1. People often deceive themselves that their will is God's Will.
2. People often infer things from God's commands that are not there.
Case in point (starting story-time):
A few years ago, I was pondering my future plans in prayer. During that prayer time, I received a very specific communication from God:
"Try out for NET"
NET is a retreat ministry program where young adults are trained to give retreats to high schoolers, and they go around the US and put on these retreats.
So, I put in my application, and I felt SURE that I would get in. I mean, I got a memo from God. So, I got chosen for the interview/retreat weekend where the final cuts are made. The weekend was great; I felt very confident about it.
A few weeks later, however, I got a rejection notice. I was confused, disappointed and slightly angry. After more prayer time, some time talking about it with my priest, etc., I came to a shocking realization. The communication was laser-sharp and precise. I followed the command, but the command didn't promise that I would get accepted. I assumed that it meant I would be accepted, not God. On later reflection, I think I grew more because I got rejected than I would have if I had been accepted.
So, in short, this "God's Plan" stuff is the sort of thing that needs to be treaded lightly and with extreme caution.
scardeal wrote: A few years ago, I was pondering my future plans in prayer. During that prayer time, I received a very specific communication from God: "Try out for NET"
I'm going to re-reiterate the "nobody owes me an explanation" bit, but you can imagine my curiosity.
If you'd care to answer, what do you mean when you say you "received a very specific communication from God"?
In reply to scardeal:
With all due respect, that comes across as a major excuse. As does a lot of this "failure is Gods way of testing me" stuff.
You have no idea how much you would have grown, or even HOW you would have grown had you gotten into the NET ministry program. In theory, you could have influenced MANY people, and they could have you, too. But, since you didn't get in, following what you thought was a direct suggestion, you then justify that by a measurement that can't realistically be compared, since the altertnative never happened.
I shouldn't read this thread, as everytime I see someone justifying "glory" by thinking God, and then excuse "failure" by saying He's testing me- that's just an excuse of letting go.
If you need God to not sweat the small stuff, that's cool, and if He helps you get over your failures, that's cool, too. Unless it also distracts you from actual reasons why you didn't succeed. as in....
Take the guy on Survivor- did he get enough sleep before the last challenges? For the football player- did he miss a cue that caused him to blow coverage allowing the winning play? For your ministry- do you know why they rejected you? Like education, experience, etc? And are you, the FB player, and the contestant going to get that for future events? Or are you just going to say "I grew more because I got rejected/lost/blew coverage" and not know your shortcomings?
That's where I have an issue.
And the more I hear "thank God for this" , the less I want to agree with it.
I think a rhubarb is about to break out.
ransom wrote: I'm going to re-reiterate the "nobody owes me an explanation" bit, but you can imagine my curiosity. If you'd care to answer, what do you mean when you say you "received a very specific communication from God"?
I don't mind answering at all...
Normally, when I pray, my mind is very active and whatnot, so most things are hard to discern whether they're my thoughts or communication from God or some sort of soupy blend to it. Furthermore, it tends to be sort of an "internal dialogue" where it's almost like talking in my head using English.
This, though, was different.
It feels like the communication was, for lack of a better term, pure meaning. It was not in words, internal, external, written or audible. There was no discernible language to it, but the meaning was absolutely, unequivocally clear. It was razor sharp exactly to what was meant and nothing more nor less. It carried no emotion, so it wasn't harsh or pleading, but only a firm command. It's like one second it wasn't there, and another second it was there. There was no internal bubbling of thought to it; there was no sense that this was really at the back of my mind and just came to the forefront.
fast_eddie_72 wrote: Why then do we put her in jail for it?
When you have the kind of faith that allows you to send your children on to heaven the rest of the cabal gets jealous of your success at absolute belief and casts you out. This is why more people do not excel at the blind faith thing... what are the rewards? Exile. Prison. Its a very self-defeating system.
Scott wrote: I think a rhubarb is about to break out.
This just made my 'love of pie' gene kick in. There is diner nearby with strawberry rhubarb pie that is uhhhh.... heavenly?
In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:
We put her in jail because it wasn't part of God's plan for the kids to die?
I get confused when people think their answer has to work for others. I get more confused when folks get angry that other peoples' answer won't work for them.
Whatever gets you through the night as my favorite barkeep liked to say...
In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:
You've actually tasted rhubarb pie? I thought it was just something made up for Thomas Hardy books. What is it like?
scardeal wrote: In reply to z31maniac: Quick thought response: Let's say you know your neighbor cuts his grass on thursdays at 7PM. You are going to have a party on thursday at 7PM. Can you plan on a way to keep your neighbor from disturbing the party with his mower? There are numerous ways that you can account for his schedule/habits/whatever without zapping his brain (or deceiving him). (Eg soundproofing, cutting his grass for him, give him a reasonably silent mower, etc.) In the same way, God can have a plan without compromising your free will.
This analogy is not relevant to the idea we were discussing.
I believe in free will, and right or wrong, I believe that rules out the possibility of a god.
If god is all-knowing, how does he "know" what my next word typed will be?
1. It is either predetermined by the most powerful being in existence.
2. He is making an educated guess, or a prediction if you like, as to what I will choose.
Option 1 negates Free Will.
Option 2 destroys all religion in the world, because god becomes fallible as gods existence is based on the of the prinicipal of being infallible.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to scardeal: With all due respect, that comes across as a major excuse. As does a lot of this "failure is Gods way of testing me" stuff.
I don't remember thinking "this is God testing me." He asked me to do something. I did what was asked. It didn't have the result I expected. I grew as a result of the experience. Enough said. You are right that I can never know for sure what would have happened if I had been accepted. The only thing I can do is share my experience, and nothing more.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'll still hopefully see you at an AutoX soon... (CCM on Sunday maybe?)
In reply to z31maniac:
What if god created everything but is not infallible? I made some kids but I can't force them to do everything I want and I surely can't predict all of their future actions.
Scott wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: You've actually tasted rhubarb pie? I thought it was just something made up for Thomas Hardy books. What is it like?
Dude, you are missing out.
Hard to describe, but rhubarb is quite tart, so you have to add sugar- but the ballance between the two, and if you add ice cream... wow.
Love rhubarb.
Scott wrote: In reply to z31maniac: What if god created everything but is not infallible? I made some kids but I can't force them to do everything I want and I surely can't predict all of their future actions.
Because God is defined as being infallible.
scardeal wrote: So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'll still hopefully see you at an AutoX soon... (CCM on Sunday maybe?)
Even if CCM had a normal Sunday event, I doubt I'd be there. I have not been to a non AROC event for quite a while now. Since 2007, I think. Kinda lost the drive.
And would rather spend the time growing stuff to eat.
Stunning that they are having an event on Memorial Day weekend. That was one of the taboo weekends.
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