In reply to z31maniac:
You're correct, I was just replying to Gameboy's post.
Sorry, didn't mean to start dragging the thread off topic.
-edit-
I remember my mom having to wonder whether we'd eat or pay rent.
I remember Santa "forgetting" our house.
Sorry, staying white trash and poor never seemed like a good idea to me.
HiTempguy wrote: Explain to me why these people can't better themselves? Please do that, instead of talking down to us like you're opinion and viewpoint is better than ours, because from my perspective, you are advocating that we need to "nurture" these people into being responsible adults who actually give a E36 M3.
That's not my point at all, my point is that being a responsible adult who gives a E36 M3 is not enough. Factors outside of their control are involved, and then there are factors that are technically in their control but require heroic efforts that are far beyond what most people are, or should need to be, capable of - and which many people never had to deal with. To say that a person is fully in control of the means to better themselves and that there's practically no variation in the effort required is the just world fallacy in a nutshell.
HiTempguy wrote: As I've said, hand UP, not hand OUT. There is nothing stopping these people except themselves, and if they do not have that desire, there is NOTHING we can do about it as their rights give them the option to be poor and miserable. Its the cost of freedom.
This is just "rugged individualism" and it only serves to help those who already don't need help by clearing them of any responsibility to help those who do. It's not a binary condition that you must allow for poverty and misery to exist to have freedom, it's a sliding scale which you can choose a point on.
A Somalian who lives outside the capitol compound has more "freedom" than you at the cost of a greater potential for poverty and misery, while a Swede, likewise, has less of both. Even the effect from one end of the scale to the other changes depending on the resources available - a society with little resources would get little change in P&M going from the "anarchist" to the "totalitarian" ends of the scale, while many modern societies could edge a little further from the "anarchist" end and get a massive reduction in P&M.
In reply to Trans_Maro:
I think is a bit on topic as it gives discussions that may help some understanding to the "why" and how crippling the "whys" can be.
Think about it like this . . . When all hope has been destroyed/taken/extinguished, even a small glimmer of hope coming tomorrow is better than none yesterday. For some, that glimmer is what keeps them there. Especially now that social media confirms (rightly or wrongly) what we believe.
GameboyRMH wrote: Factors outside of their control are involved, and then there are factors that are technically in their control but require heroic efforts that are far beyond what most people are, or should need to be, capable of - and which many people never had to deal with.
I never said any of that. What you are describing in your posts is such a SMALL, MINISCULE portion of society. To apply that in broad sweeping strokes to people is not only false, but also patronizing to those people (Pat on the head) It's not your fault, the system keeps you down! Don't worry, we'll provide you with welfare and you don't have to try anymore! (/Pats head).
Again, that is the problem I have. I don't have a problem with the disabled (both physically and mentally, or the people who have been broken due to circumstance), the downtrodden, and those who have actually SUFFERED.
But we provide free (or virtually free education), the SAME education available to all. We provide subsidized housing. We provide training, we provide food stamps, we ALREADY PROVIDE ALL THESE THINGS.
At this point, we have to recognize a couple points, and one of them (as Strike basically agreed) is that some people prefer what they currently have. Those people will not be convinced, unless it is themselves that do the convincing.
You can not help someone that does not want help. It is a pretty simple concept.
I'm not denying that there are people who don't want help (like Mr. Hose Stabber), but I think you're the one applying that paint in broad strokes when it applies to a miniscule portion of society. I'm not saying that some meaningfully large fraction of society could only live on a steady stream of welfare money, I'm saying it would help to meet the people who might be able to help themselves halfway instead of making a token effort and saying "welp, we've done our best, you can lead a horse to water etc..."
In reply to ronholm:
Actually, the blacks and Hispanics are usually the ones at odds inside prisons anymore, and at least in Indiana, they aren't segregated. They comingle, except we had one whole 55 man dorm with violent offenders from opposing gangs segregated by the upper and lower levels. That was a fun building, I'll bet that dorm still smells like pepper spray.
conflicting reports about a possible police involved shooting an hour and a half ago.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/04/man-shot-multiple-times-by-baltimore-police/
The article has changed, The original article read:
Crime & Courts
Man shot by Baltimore police
Published May 04, 2015 ·FoxNews.com
Facebook 622 Twitter 491 livefyre 1782 Email
manshotB.jpg
The unidentified man is seen in a stretcher after being shot Monday by Baltimore police. (Fox News)
DEVELOPING: Baltimore police shot a man Monday in the same area where massive riots broke out last week over the death of Freddie Gray.
It's unclear what prompted the shooting. A Fox News crew witnessed a young black male running from police before he was shot.
It's not known whether the unidentified man was armed. A gun was reportedly found nearby on a sidewalk.
A crowd quickly formed around the man, who was seen on a stretcher as he was being loaded into an ambulance. His condition is unknown.
The Baltimore Police tweeted the man was shot "multiple times."
A witness told Fox News no words were exchanged between officers and the man, whom she described as "young" and possibly in his teens.
Police said the man had a gun that fired when it dropped during the arrest. The witness, however, said she saw no weapon.
Police reportedly used pepper spray on the crowd after the shooting.
Last Friday, six Baltimore police officers were charged in the death of Gray, 25, who died April 19, one week after being injured while in police custody.
Gray’s death touched off rioting, that culminated in the torching of 15 buildings and more than 100 cars one week ago.
The death of Gray led prosecutors to charge one police officer with murder, three with manslaughter and two with assault in the death of Gray, who a prosecutor said suffered a broken neck last month when he was left shackled at the feet and lying face down in a police van by officers who ignored his pleas as they made their rounds. Gray suffered a broken neck, apparently while riding in the back of the Baltimore police van.
Fox News' Mike Tobin and Leland Vittert contributed to this report.
and though the article text has changed Fox (ugh) still has this up:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4215812989001/fox-news-crew-witnesses-police-shooting-of-man-in-baltimore/?#sp=show-clips
I'm just going to say that it may have been better form for BCPD to have the ambulance pull closer to the person needing medical attention then the police van was...
38 hours IS the limit after all.
It took so long to fire him he had to be union.
Raciest!!!! 
I haven't verified it. It popped up on my FB feed. It was interesting.
How much police brutality is there? https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=648612035243612&fref=nf
Dr. Hess wrote:
Going to have to call you on this one. This appears to be a good example of bad data. It has no context, where?, when?, (e.g. was it in a mostly black area). It appears to have a very small sample size (looks to be 16 and 19), which tends to imply it is from a pretty small area.
Might be entirely true, but I think this chart needs to be disregarded unless you can provide a lot more context.
In reply to aircooled:
I'm guessing "(16)" and "(19)" are citation numbers, not sample sizes. Still would be most useful to check what those sources are.
Beer Baron wrote: In reply to aircooled: I'm guessing "(16)" and "(19)" are citation numbers, not sample sizes. Still would be most useful to check what those sources are.
As Mr. Science, I'll just helpfully point out that the figure gives % (#) for each fraction, and all the (#)'s sum up to (16) or (19). So yes, they're sample sizes and they're terrible.
Related:
Dr. Hess wrote:
Obvious confirmation bias is obvious. That said, this kind of stuff has no place in this discussion. This would be the second time in this thread that I would ask for a link to suspect conclusions but I'm not even interested in asking for this one as it is so far beneath the level of discourse here I think we can all do without it. I would ask the poster to remove it as it contributes nothing to the discussion.
HiTempguy wrote: Raciest!!!!
I know you think you are being cute, but I have read your responses in this thread.
Yet more confirmation bias?
This thread has had references to looters stealing everything but "condoms" and "workboots," in addition to these fine charts provided with no actual detail. We also have another poster adding a study which he is unwilling or unable to link which seems to indicate that white people love helping out African Americans when even African Americans are unwilling to help other African Americans. According to that poster it was apparently 100% accurate along racial lines and the author leaves us to draw the conclusion that it is due to the nature of the African American. This technique is as old as Jim Crow. I will wait for my link but i think we all know it is not forthcoming.
Lots of good conversation in this thread but also several appalling examples that cross lines. I am not the only one who has noted those examples. It saddens me that I am no longer surprised to read this kind of content on the GRM message board.
Well Matt..
I went back through the thread to find where you had contributed to the discussion and couldn't find anything beyond stating "facts please" or something like that.
If you're going to post about being offended and start shaming people, why don't you try educating them instead.
mattm wrote: Lots of good conversation in this thread but also several appalling examples that cross lines. I am not the only one who has noted those examples. It saddens me that I am no longer surprised to read this kind of content on the GRM message board.
Take your sadness elsewhere.
The way honest discussion works is that people cross lines then come to terms with the response. A back-and-forth dialog where people learn and understand each other. They get used to each other. Who are the silent crowd of sad example witnesses that are appalled? Name names. Are they hot? Do you have any pics?
Pics would be sweet.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:mattm wrote: Lots of good conversation in this thread but also several appalling examples that cross lines. I am not the only one who has noted those examples. It saddens me that I am no longer surprised to read this kind of content on the GRM message board.Take your sadness elsewhere. The way honest discussion works is that people cross lines then come to terms with the response. A back-and-forth dialog where people learn and understand each other. They get used to each other. Who are the silent crowd of sad example witnesses that are appalled? Name names. Are they hot? Do you have any pics? Pics would be sweet.
I don't have pics of Datsun1500 but maybe you could use your imagination? You bring up a good point. I am only bringing up references posted totals thread for all to see. I am not referencing the unwashed masses who have not yet posted to this board.
Honest discussion doesn't include posting the charts above without further detail. That isn't honest it is just cherry picking pictures that reinforce personal beliefs. Previous posters who's names rhyme with ronholm add details of a study that evidently shows that even black people in a certain county hate being around black people but he is not sure he can post a link.
I'm not the one adding that type of crap to this thread but I am the one calling out that type of crap. As far as pictures, how about this...
Roc, 1992 - arrested for being black in a white neighborhood.
Strange Fruit, 1939 - Billie Holliday sings about lynching.
Jim Crow laws, pick your time - they still exist, if unwritten.
Dred Scott, 1857 - You're not free, you just thought you were free.
3/5's compromise, 1787 - Only a little more than half human.
There's a long history here. It's not easily overcome, and never forgotten by those it victimized, and continues to victimize. Usually unseen by those on top.
Beat a dog regularly and be surprised it one day bites you? Who's the fool?
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