Goodnight Baltimore!

If you want to continue to argue about police conduct and authoritarian police states consider the following and how lead paint influences citizens within an area and their involvement and interactions with the police:

The effects of it will have a direct correlation to failed relationships (and corresponding domestic violence), reliance on drugs and or alcohol (likelihood even for the means of making a living), violence and a resentment of authority. Clean up the lead paint and you end up needing fewer police and have fewer policing issues. You can't blame police for some use of force when detaining suspects (though maiming and killing is never warranted) when they are dealing with angry citizens who don't respond to commands, and can't reason the consequences of their actions if they engage the police, or run from them, due to their poisoning. It's not an excuse for either side of the equation, but the sad truth of the circumstances that are the situation. Everyone involved is a victim in some form, those who police, those who attempt to teach, ultimately with person suffering through living a life living with the effects of lead poisoning being the greatest victim of all.

As for funding of lead paint removal. It will save money in the long run, less money spend on policing efforts, investment in a hopeless education system, in less social welfare programs, and in increased income tax from more productive citizens and increased property tax values.

HiTempguy wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Possibly, but does intent really matter if you still end up dead?

Well if we want to turn this into an existential debate, NOTHING matters when you are dead. If that is how the world operated on basing policies and law, it would be a much different place. So yea, accidentally killing somebody is significantly different than meaning to kill someone. The law is PRETTY clear about that one dude.

Replace you with anything, it wasn't supposed to mean ME specifically, just the general you, the Royal you if you will.

spitfirebill wrote: Yea, I was going to say if you don't fight the police, the chances of dying go way down. Not to zero, but way down. And does anybody think the quality of police officers is going to go up after all this crap???

That's a very simplistic way to view it.

I doubt the victim Joe Gearin mentioned was fighting the police in his underoos. You also don't have to be killed to be a victim of the type of police over reach that Dr. Hess cataloged for us in his excellent post.

Xceler8x wrote:

spitfirebill wrote: Yea, I was going to say if you don't fight the police, the chances of dying go way down. Not to zero, but way down. And does anybody think the quality of police officers is going to go up after all this crap???

That's a very simplistic way to view it. I doubt the victim Joe Gearin mentioned was fighting the police in his underoos. You also don't have to be killed to be a victim of the type of police over reach that Dr. Hess cataloged for us in his excellent post.

I was talking about out on the streets where most of this stuff occurs. The whole home invasion at 3:00am by SWAT is bullE36 M3 and needs to stop unless it is VITAL. Unfortunately, the highest court in the land has said its hunky dorey.

The 3AM thing is done because that is the time of the night when people are least likely to be stirring about. That's generally reserved for the ones the cops think are violent and that has a lot to do with the SWAT thing. It's not universal; a guy got shot by cops in his brother's house about 3/4 mile from me (as the crow flies). It was 2:30 AM, the guy was a mental patient from Florida (surprise, surprise) and had been up all night threatening himself and others in the house with a knife. Brother had enough, called the cops. Mental patient is said to have threatened the cops with the knife, they shot him and he later died at a local hospital. Didn't even make a blip on the national news; I will let the peanut gallery posit as to why.

In reply to mad_machine:

Actually, here in Indiana there is a bitchfest going on(mercifully not as bad as the ZOMG RELIGION E36 M3storm) about the state's budget that just passed. Evidently urban school systems were getting $400 per student MORE than other areas....and yet the outcry is over the urban budgets being cut so that they are MERELY $200 MORE per student than those same other areas......our urban school systems are evidently masterful at throwing money away, as NOTHING has helped turn those systems around. You can't make 'em learn, you can only try.....and money didn't solve it.

Curmudgeon

I understand that is the way it is supposed to be, but there have been quite a few cases on the news lately where its being done to serve warrants for minor issues. In Minnesota free speaking convervatives are being invaded to pay back Scott Walker for messing with the unions. Computers and phones are being taken and they are told do not tell anyone and do not call an attorney or you will be charged with obstrcution. Of course this was just on Fox I'm sure it isn't true. How about the case where they went into the wrong house, kill the guy (a Marine) because he had appeared in the doorway with an AR-15 (because you know, his house was being invaded) and get away with it. OOPs my bad.

I'm not going to comment on the Scott Walker payback thing. About the Marine with the AR15: I don't recall the exact incident, but will make SWAGs (Scientific Wild Ass Guesses) that

1) he knew he was in their view thus the raid shouldn't have been a huge surprise

2) the raid was done with blue lights flashing which should have been a dead giveaway it wasn't dope dealers

3) he chose to be Billy Badass and flash an AR15 which is NOT a smart thing to do in front of a bunch of armed cops

4) or he chose 'suicide by cop'.

drummerfromdefleopard wrote: Here's an element that effects impoverished inner cities across the country that is not mentioned or dealt with enough. Kudos to the Washington Post writer to mention it. If you want to get lead out of the streets, get it out of the houses. My commentary on the issue of it, and how it compounds other social and civil issues within the areas it effects are below the link. Lead Paint poisoning. http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/freddie-grays-life-a-study-in-the-sad-effects-of-lead-paint-on-poor-blacks/2015/04/29/0be898e6-eea8-11e4-8abc-d6aa3bad79dd_story.html That's the biggest most easily corrected issue in the system of the poor inner cities across the country, but when/if addressed results won't show for 20-25 years, thus politicians don't address it as it won't assist them get re-elected or ascend to high office. It leads to children that can't focus in school and aren't capable or comprehension or problem solving skills. It creates emotional mood swings that can lead to violent behavior. Which leads to not being employable, or rotating through low paying jobs resulting in only being able to afford run down dilapidated housing, likely with lead paint which continues the cycle for the next generation, which is being raised by parent(s) who have emotional issues from their own poisoning which lead to fractured relationships due to a lack of being able to effectively communicate, problem solve and comprehend others perspectives. The fact that they're not able to guide their own children isn't due to lack of effort or disregard, it's because they're victims of poisoning that left them unable to. Sidenote: This also leads to the impression that the school system in affected areas is broken and not capable of teaching the children. You can't teach a mute how to sing and you can't teach the deaf to hear. I'm not going to claim that eliminating lead paint will correct all issues within the area it effects, but it will allow for the development and growth of citizens within the areas to become problem solvers for those within their community, hopefully leading to growth of home grown leadership from within the community to provide guidance and hold office while continuing to better the community for those living within it.

I remember reading about how lead affects people a few years ago.. scary stuff.

A quick note on lead paint...ALL of us over a certain age grew up around lead paint. Not all of us do the things happening in various cities right now. To blame it on lead paint is a bit of a reach in my opinion.

Curmudgeon wrote: I'm not going to comment on the Scott Walker payback thing. About the Marine with the AR15: I don't recall the exact incident, but will make SWAGs (Scientific Wild Ass Guesses) that 1) he knew he was in their view thus the raid shouldn't have been a huge surprise 2) the raid was done with blue lights flashing which should have been a dead giveaway it wasn't dope dealers 3) he chose to be Billy Badass and flash an AR15 which is NOT a smart thing to do in front of a bunch of armed cops 4) or he chose 'suicide by cop'.

No, I recall that incident. Marine was back from the sand box. He lived in a bad neighborhood. Wife and kid in the house and the door bursts open and men rush in. He was kneeling, I believe and they shot him dead right there, no warnings, nothing. He never fired a shot.

Curmudgeon wrote: I'm not going to comment on the Scott Walker payback thing. About the Marine with the AR15: I don't recall the exact incident, but will make SWAGs (Scientific Wild Ass Guesses) that 1) he knew he was in their view thus the raid shouldn't have been a huge surprise 2) the raid was done with blue lights flashing which should have been a dead giveaway it wasn't dope dealers 3) he chose to be Billy Badass and flash an AR15 which is NOT a smart thing to do in front of a bunch of armed cops 4) or he chose 'suicide by cop'.

Wrong on all counts. Cops were at the wrong house. He thought bad guys were breaking in. Just because someone yells COPS and breaks in the door means they really are cops. The dead man was a marine and knew how to use a weapon. I do not recall any charges being filed.

I support LEO, but they can be heavy handed at times and seem to love it.

Then I will retract my statement.

In reply to z31maniac:

Boost_Crazy wrote: In reply to T.J.: Boost Crazy & HiTemp Guy, It is not a case of nit-picking. Although the odds are pretty long that any one of us individually w ill be killed by a LEO, the odds of that happening are many times higher than the odds of us being killed by a terrorist attack (9 times more likely according to this). Why have we been told for 14 years to be scared of the terrorists and constantly told we must exchange our rights and freedoms in order to be protected from them if in fact we are 9 times more likely to be killed by a police officer? We are a prison state, mostly due to the failed war on drugs. The big difference is that however unlikely, terrorists want to kill us, and are willing to end their own lives to do so. I don't believe that even the worst cops want to kill random people, and I don't think any would give up their life to do so. Bad decisions and mistakes are very different from premeditated attacks. Possibly, but does intent really matter if you still end up dead?

Sure it does. You are comparing apples and oranges. On one hand, you have the the argument of trading freedom for security against terrorists, who want to kill you. To use your arguement, how important is your freedom if you are dead? While I pesonally lean towards the freedom side, it is a legitimate debate with no easy answer as to how much is too much. But "what does it matter if you are dead" is a dangerous arguement, because everything has a degree of risk to it. Life is about making decisions based on the potential risks. Getting shot by a cop is pretty close to the bottom of the list for me personally, well below driving to work or eating late night Chinese Buffett.

By comparison, police killings are not planned. They don't head out on their shift planning to shoot somebody. They would be very difficult to stop from happening, because most are justified or accidents. There are things that can be done, and are being done- better selection of officers, better training, etc.. But like I said before, I'm suprised by the sheer lack of incidents when you consider the nature of the job. Not many of us have jobs in which in a day of work your actions could get you killed, you could kill someone else, or you could lose your job and go to jail for making the wrong decision in the blink of an eye.

Actually, being a cop is not that dangerous. It is like 13th most dangerous job, and only a fraction as dangerous as Fisherman. Also well below convenience store clerk. Most of them that are killed in the line of duty are killed in auto accidents. Being shot and killed is really rare. And somewhere I read that most shot and killed in the line of duty are shot with their own guns.

Curmudgeon wrote: Then I will retract my statement.

wait a minute. this is the internet. you have to keep arguing!

AngryCorvair wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: Then I will retract my statement.

wait a minute. this is the internet. you have to keep arguing!

No, he doesn't.

racerdave600 wrote: A quick note on lead paint...ALL of us over a certain age grew up around lead paint. Not all of us do the things happening in various cities right now. To blame it on lead paint is a bit of a reach in my opinion.

I don't think so.. consider that lead paint to us was fairly recently painted. As it is near impossible to get, the lead paint that is out there is old and going dusty and flaking. Another thing I remember reading on it, the concentration of lead dust was -much- higher in the inner cities due to traffic and the use of lead in gasoline.. so you have a more concentrated dosage.

I am not saying it explains everything, but it does make a lot of sense for some

In reply to Dr. Hess:

I don't think anyone said that law enforcement was the most dangerous job, just that it is a dangerous job. It's also one of the few where your work may actively try to kill you at any time. As a percentage, roofers, fishermen, loggers, etc. have a higher percentages of deaths, but have a lower likelyhood of something at work trying to kill them. Convenience store clerks and cab drivers also have jobs that have a higher likelyhood of someone actively trying to kill them. So do drug dealers, which in Baltimore is considered a job according to a front page article in today's paper.

mad_machine wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: A quick note on lead paint...ALL of us over a certain age grew up around lead paint. Not all of us do the things happening in various cities right now. To blame it on lead paint is a bit of a reach in my opinion.

I don't think so.. consider that lead paint to us was fairly recently painted. As it is near impossible to get, the lead paint that is out there is old and going dusty and flaking. Another thing I remember reading on it, the concentration of lead dust was -much- higher in the inner cities due to traffic and the use of lead in gasoline.. so you have a more concentrated dosage. I am not saying it explains everything, but it does make a lot of sense for some

Still not buying it. I spent my formative early years in Chicago in a roughish area, there was plenty of old, flaking lead paint, probably a lot more than today. When I say lead paint was everywhere, it was literally everywhere. While I won't say it has no effect, I'm saying there is a lot more at work here than that. In fact, its probably a small part, very small.

This problem is not limited to one single thing I don't believe, but a combination of issues that have been brewing for some time. You can start with disintegration of the family and lack of parenting, to the failure of the school systems, to the failure of the police force and city governments. There's plenty of blame to go around and not very many solutions. I still maintain that body cameras are a must to protect all involved and defuse situations before they start. I would help keep most people "honest". But it's just a start. Like I alluded to in an earlier post, we have to get out of making everyone a villain, and get a proper education system. Our current system is a failure on almost every level, and its not all about money.

By the way, I wasn't dismissing what you said, nor trying to be a douche. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Interesting how I'm more nervous everytime Ive ever dealt with cops than when I was in Afghanistan dealing with locals. But then again. I'm a young black male who grew up in the hood and learned first hand both sides of being policed and policing. I've had maybe 4 good interactions with police out of the hundred or so. By the way. I've never broke the law, besides speeding

In reply to yupididit: Were there any other factors which may have been in play when you had negative interactions? Not anything you did, but things that might have caught the attention of the police. While I don't doubt that skin color can be a factor, I'd be suprised if it was the only one, or the primary factor. How you were dressed, what you were driving, who you were with, and the time and place are all factors on how you are perceived. Your reaction to the police is also a big determining factor of how the experience goes. That applies no matter your skin color. Now I understand that most of those things shouldn't matter, but they do, and I don't think it's fair to put race at the top of the list if there are other factors at play. Now, if none of those things applied, and you were hassled by the police for no reason whatsoever, that is not acceptable.

Driving while Black is a very real phenomenon. You should witness it in action.

Case in point, co-worker and I were going up to NYC for a day's worth of work. I was driving an old beaten up E350 van, dented, paint falling off, mismatched fender.. it looked and drove like the rolling DOT failure it was.

He was driving a clean 2nd generation Saturn Coupe' in silver. Completely stock, not even a GPS on the dashboard.

I was following him through a small town on route 206 here in NJ and a cop going the other way damn near twisted his head off to get a look at my co-worker.. but missed the obvious fix-it tickets he could have written against the work van I was driving.

It was the first time I ever saw "DWB" in action.. it floored me, but sadly, it was the not the last time I have seen such profiling

Lead paint bullE36 M3 AGAIN, come on that is so 1990's that argument is worn out, many many people have live with lead paint all over the world and they do not behave like this. I will have to try to compose my opinion/ perspective of the way thing's really are in Baltimore as I have spent most of my life living there.

Lead paint, give me a break.

Paul B

In reply to mad_machine:

I don't doubt that it happens. And it sucks for everyone, the people who are unfairly targeted and the other cops that don't do that and get a bad rep.

Did your co-worker get pulled over? If so, what was the reason? If not, can you really call that DWB? There may have been a call on a silver compact car.