AKA - how screwed am I and how tough is this going to be to fix.
The toilet tank in my hall bathroom cracked, and got water into the garage. I'm not worried too much about the garage portion yet, I figure if some drywall ends up having to be removed from the ceiling, I can deal with that later. The bathroom on the other hand, I want functional again asap.
I haven't pulled the toilet yet, since I don't want to leave an open hole to the sewer, but I did start tearing away at the flooring around it. Top layer was stick on vinyl tile, next appeared to be adhesive for the original linoleum tile the bathroom probably had when it was built, then what appears to be a fiberboard?! underlayment that was in really bad shape, at which point I hit what the toilet appears to be sitting on. Plywood with a relatively smooth surface, that appears to be stapled down. It is also rotted right near the toilet.
Questions:
- Is that plywood likely to be the subfloor, or since it has been stapled and is smooth on the top, is it likely to be another underlayment over the subfloor? In which case, maybe the subfloor is still intact enough to not need any repair/replacement.
- If there is damage to the subfloor, but it isn't extensive, are there any epoxies or other magic tricks for repairing/leveling it out, or is it going to be a matter of having to cut it out and replace some of it.
- I've not had to do anywhere near this much repair in a bathroom before. Any general adive on what to do?
Dang, sorry to hear this.. The "Right way" to do it is to get the rotten wood out of there. If you're replacing the finish floor anyway, it's not a big jump to replacing subfloor sheets. They're just OSB (oriented strand board) most likely, and if it's just a bit of rot around the toilet, you'll hopefully get away with replacing one sheet. Just measure the thickness and get identical thickness board. Cut the hole for the toilet flange in the right spot and swap. If you can get to the screws holding the old sheet down you don't need to cut it out.
I've never done a toilet flange before so I'm not sure how they attach to the subfloor.
Pull the toilet and stuff a Tee shirt in the hole. Now you can start peeling back the layers until you get to non rotten non soggy wood. Fix the wood. Flanges are suppose to go on after the subfloor and flooring is installed. If you have tile, it goes on top of the tile not even with it. Goal is to minimize the space between toilet and flange. The less wax you have the better. The flange is glues to the pipe if its plastic. If its cast, then lead and oakum provide the bonding connection. Either way, they make repair flanges with rubber gaskets that fit inside the old pipe. May not be the most proper repair, but it works and beats paying a plumber 100s of dollars to do it 100% right. Whatever flange you end up with, it gets screwed down with up to 6 stainless or brass screws. Flange attaches to pipe. Flange gets screwed down to the floor. Toilet bolts to flange.
It sounds like the flange is underneath the finished floor? That's not normal at all, was the toilet submerged into the floor then?
Sounds like the flange may be relatively original, and the floor redone once or twice after installation. Our downstairs bathroom has a "floor level" flange on top of tile board, then tile up around the flange. That took ~15 years to fail, after which I replaced the flange with one slightly above the tile level. There are a variety of flange repairs out there, some better than others.
+1 for anything stainless or brass. Plastic, to me is "builder-grade stuff that might last 10 years.
It looks like there is a solution that fits into the existing pipe (neat idea, though I don't like the additional restriction to flow...
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Push-Tite-Gasketed-Closet-Flange-White-3-Inside-Fit-Stainless-Steel-Swivel-Ring/363089154?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1772&adid=22222222222076830094&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=84112639640711&wl4=pla-4587712267198901:aud-807615483&wl12=363089154_10000001836&wl14=toile%20flange%20repair&veh=sem&msclkid=21ad07cddad1116d81c95b2541eeb7fe
Most recently, I used ont of these:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=814B25CC2978CB44A3EBD9E0A6B8698BBCCB99D3&thid=OIP.PiHT0qX-FGnnep2cjMpyWwHaHa&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.homedepot-static.com%2FproductImages%2F23cb14e1-7c14-4fb9-a299-85d0b861534f%2Fsvn%2Fdanco-gaskets-seals-wax-rings-10672x-64_1000.jpg&exph=1000&expw=1000&q=toilet+flange+repair&selectedindex=2&qpvt=toilet+flange+repair&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1,2,6
I really hope it holds up. the bolt connection seemed iffy, but solid enough. Not sure how it will work over the long run.
And - yes, DEFINITELY replace the wet / damaged floor. Everything else is based on that being solid.
In reply to Greg Smith :
Does that go over an old flange or replace it?
Did you know that if you live in a house with two and a half baths, by the time you are finished repairing the last one, the first one needs work again?
In reply to Streetwiseguy :
I have that fear right now. I bought a house with two bathrooms, even though I was single at the time, just so I’d be able to deal with situations like this. I’m getting nervous something will go wrong with the other bathroom before I fix this, and I’ll have to rent a portolet.
There is now a rectangular hole in the floor, after I won a way too long fight with the flange. Tomorrow, I’ll be adding some 2x4 cross beams to help support the floor replacement, and hopefully get the floor and the new flange installed, and some leveling compound in the gaps. After that, I have some 1/4” maple plywood (really closer to 3/16”), that’ll go in. That should put the flange at about 1/4” above floor level, which appears to be the optimum amount according to my internet research. The toilet will go on there, and I’ll cut the new peel and stick tiles to fit around the base of the toilet, instead of putting them under it.
I bought some rubber seal that is supposed to be better than a wax seal, since you can re-set it if you mess up. Hoping it works out well.
I also have a family event to go to tomorrow, so I’m guessing the toilet won’t actually be functional until Monday or later, and knowing me, the tiles won’t be done until well into the week, or next weekend.
Your house got jealous that your Beetle was getting a new floor and it wanted attention too. That is why the toilet above the garage leaked.
Okay, so after some convincing, a family member with way more experience in plumbing than me convinced me to not install the flange until after I have the flooring in. Which leaves me with a problem. The flange I bought that goes in the 3” pipe will not be long enough. I have another flange that is a combo 3”/4” flange, where it goes on the outside of the 3” pipe. My fear is that I will prime and cement it during the install, but then have no way to prove whether or not it sealed, unless I start getting water dripping into the garage ceiling again.
Would JB waterweld or something else be okay to put at the top of the interface with the pipe to help make sure everything sealed up. Crude picture below:
The black lines are the pipe, the blue lines are the flange, and the green spot is where I’m wondering if there is something additional that can be added to make sure everything seals up.
Also, I picked up one of these: Twist n set flange. Anyone used this on a pvc pipe? I’m under the impression that even though it’s designed to replace an iron flange, it may work on pvc, too.
Edit: never mind - found something on Menards website that should work. I’ll run out tomorrow morning to check it out
Either will work. You only need 1/2" or so to make sure the glue will hold. Prime both pieces, apply glue to both pieces, push together, hold, screw flange down. You can go back and paint more glue inside the pipe if your paranoid. Its drainage, going down hill. It won't see any pressure, and probably won't even leak if you don't glue it. Those twisty things work. The opening in bottom of toilet is restricted to the size of a golf ball. Flange goes on last, after floor is installed. On a rough inspection where the inspector comes out and the floors are not installed, you will fail inspection if the flange is glued on and screwed to subfloor. its always just a pipe sticking up to floor level with a plug in it. After everybody else is done, floors are installed, walls are painted, etc. That's when the plumber comes back and does finish work, including gluing on flange, and setting the toilet. We are always the first guys in after the framers, and the last guys out, but homeowners don't seem to understand that. Constantly trying to get a working bathroom before tile, countertops, and painted walls.
In reply to tr8todd :
I’ll definitely be able to put a flange in on top of the floor now. Menards had this, and it fits the pipe, and is long enough to keep me from worrying. Now it’s just a matter of how long it’ll take for floor leveling compound to dry before I put in the thin plywood, then the tiles.
Finally got the toilet installed tonight after my wife painted the wall behind it and put new tiles in last night. I think I did everything right, but I may have heard it run for a couple seconds about 15 minutes ago, so it is possible there is a small leak. Nothing visible on the bathroom floor or coming out of the garage ceiling right now, though.
Might turn the water supply to it off and flush it before I go to bed tonight, just in case. I’ll be working from home tomorrow, so should have a chance to hear it running on it’s own then if it happens.
And it just did it again for a few seconds. Turned off the water. Guess I’ll try a new wax ring tomorrow.
Look in the tank and see if it’s something silly like float adjustment just enough so that a little water eventually loses surface tension and flows over the tube, causing the inlet valve to open for a few seconds
Patrick said:
Look in the tank and see if it’s something silly like float adjustment just enough so that a little water eventually loses surface tension and flows over the tube, causing the inlet valve to open for a few seconds
I’ll take a look tomorrow, but I don’t think it is. The toilet is a Kohler, and the mechanism is different than I’ve seen before. There’s a big tube in the middle that goes up to let the water flush quickly, and the water line for it is low enough that water doesn’t seem like it could run over. I’ll see about getting a picture tomorrow, getting ready to crash for the night now.
The float controls the water supply directly, as far as I can tell. It is probably worth noting that the second time I heard the toilet running, I made it to the bathroom in time to see the water level slightly rising in the bowl. That’d mean the water in the bowl was going somewhere, wouldn’t it?
There’s a pic of the mechanism in this Plumbing forum link
While you're working on the floor you can get one of these to keep the sewer smell to a minimum.
Bowl level is independent of tank level when bowl drains by any means other than flushing. You can have a full tank and an empty bowl. Bowl level is tied to tank level when tank is filling as the fill valve allows water to enter both by sending some water through the closed flush valve to top off the bowl. If toilet is running, water is entering bowl. Is this a brand new toilet or did you reuse? If reused, i’m going to put my $ on the flush valve seal, it’s on the bottom of that guy in the middle that lifts to flush. They can get debris in them, or like any other rubber part can just dry and seal less over time. I replace a few a year when people assume they need a new toilet or have a bigger problem. That seal is a maintenance item much like the flapper in a traditional flush valve. You’re exhibiting classic symptoms of a flush valve in need of attention
Patrick is right of course; your wax ring seal has nothing to do with the toilet running. The flush valve is the only thing that tells the water to run and it has no connection to how sealed (or not sealed) the was ring is.
Theres a large diameter rubber seal on the bottom of the flush tower on those Kohlers and they need replaced occasionally. That’s probably your problem. Also make sure your tank level isn’t too high there should always be a gap between the water level and the top of the flush tower after the water shuts off.
Brand new Kohler Highline Classic. The old toilet was a Briggs that the tank cracked on.
I adjusted the float yesterday according to the instructions to get the water to cut off at the waterline on the flush tower?
So, even if the bowl gets a bit more water while the toilet is running, that isn't an indication that water has been leaking at the bottom of the bowl? I was just assuming the bowl was losing water, which is what triggered the toilet running. Guessing I'm wrong about that?
In reply to eastsideTim :
The bowl can theoretically drain itself dry (indicative of other problems - i.e. venting), while the tank can still be full. If the tank is refilling itself in small cycles, that means water is going to the bowl somehow. It could be the level in the tank is too high, or the flush mechanism, or the seal between the tank and the bowl/base is not sealing correctly.
On my lunch break, I wiped the seal with a paper towel, and didn’t see anything, so I turned the water back on. I noticed there is still some sediment/crud from the manufacturing process floating in the water, and am hoping some of it got caught in the seal. Haven’t heard the toilet running again yet, but the AC unit is between my office and the bathroom, so I might not while the AC is going.
Not sure why I didn’t think of the valve last night, since I’ve had the same issue in the past with flapper valves going bad on the older toilets. Think I’m just jumping to the worst possible conclusion.
Bowl level is dictated by the built in trap. No wax ring still won’t let water out of the bowl. The only thing that causes water to exit the bowl is additional water or water displacing materials to the bowl. I wouldn’t be surprised if some manufacturing crumbs were on the seal or causing it. Hopefully it was that easy, it should be, toilets are very simple except when people like toto make trays inside the tank that the water dumps from or you get into pressurized flushers.
