Before anyone responds to my last post, I'm sorry for my rant. I just get tired of people complaining about an inconvenience and calling it an infringement of their Rights.
I may not always love the way our government works, but it's still the best one out there. That's why I have sworn many oaths during my career to protect this land and the people and laws within it.
Roger
Speediot wrote: Before anyone responds to my last post, I'm sorry for my rant. I just get tired of people complaining about an inconvenience and calling it an infringement of their Rights.
They aren't rights as defined by the "Bill", they are individual freedoms. It is more than "inconvenience".
If you work for the government - it is probably difficult for you to step back and look objectively at all that has changed over the last 30 years. Hell, you might not even be 30 yrs old but I can tell you there are a lot of little things people were free to decide for themselves (sometimes to their detriment but... their decision regardless) that people born today would not even fathom for fear of punishment or even imprisonment. When you add all those little things up over just my lifetime it amounts to a big pile. The TSA has (hopefully) found the limits of our willingness to lay down and take it. The straw that broke the camels back.
Terror is the new cold war. To tell a big lie - it has to have a shred of truth. Terrorists are real but sometimes you have to wonder who is using them to get what they want.
I'm not complaining about the inconvenience, and I DO think it's an infringment on my rights, particularly this one:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Good old 4th amendment under fire thiese days. Join the club boys, the first and second have been here for awhile.
Tim Baxter wrote: I'm not complaining about the inconvenience, and I DO think it's an infringment on my rights, particularly this one: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Good old 4th amendment under fire thiese days. Join the club boys, the first and second have been here for awhile.
This.
It is an unreasonable search upon my person, with no warrant nor probable cause.
Don49 wrote: Flight service, Where are you getting your information? The images that were released were from a courthouse, not an airport. The software installed on TSA scanners cannot store images and faces are blurred out. It cannot be changed at the local level. It would have to have new software loaded. I have access to the real facts because I work for TSA. If all the allegations that are being made were true, I would be the first to blow the whistle. You may not want to hear or believe it, but there are very strict controls and standards for all TSA equipment. One of the reasons technology doesn't instantly change is that there is a very thorough testing protocol that all new equipment must go through before it is deployed. This can take up to 2 years. In an ideal world we wouldn't need this level of security, but that changed even before 911. I don't know of anyone in TSA who is thrilled to have to do the enhanced pat downs, but unless the threat suddenly goes away, this is what we have to live with for now.
I will retrieve my source for you tomorrow. Like I said I didn't ask for increased security after 9/11. I understand you don't punish the populous you punish the people responsible. I am glad there are a few people happy with the state of Martial law that has become our airline security. I am not.
Everybody is completely missing the point.
It seems nobody gets upset about anything unless somebody grabs your junk or looks at nekid pictures of your kids.
I'm thinking that al-Qaida and other bad guys are thoroughly enjoying what we are doing to ourselves.
Just as they built no bomb for 9-11, but utlized what was already in place (unleashing untold harm with no weapon worse than a box cutter), the cost and waste of energy involved in putting a completely ineffectual security system in place which breeds fear and erodes liberties (which they hate) at no cost to them must make them very happy indeed.
Billions of dollars flushed. Millions upon millions of wasted man-hours. Fearful people. No cost to the bad guys. Nice.
SVreX wrote: Everybody is completely missing the point.
No, I get your point - I just don't think there are factions of terror out there who are sitting around enjoying the irony.
I do think there are ambitious folks from our own team exploiting a threat to the fullest extent they can. I think they were opportunistically looking for a way to legally gain more power over communications and so on in an increasingly technical world and 911 gave them the right element of fear. Whether the intent was noble or sinister - the result is that we have been stripped of a layer of protection from our government that we once enjoyed.
It would be nice if this was a world where we could believe the best about the virtue of our government but history isn't exactly overflowing with stories about virtue and idealism triumphing over the passionate needs of the moment. It is filled with stories of intrigue, torture and genocide. IMO any small erosion of an individual's legal isolation from undue process is a step down a dark road.
The latest issues with the TSA is just the result of a few of those steps.
I recently flew from Tel Aviv, Israel to New York, and I witnessed first hand just how foolish we are.
The safest airline in the world is El Al, Israel's national carrier. The safest airport is Ben Gurion International, in Tel Aviv. No El Al plane has been attacked by terrorists in more than three decades, and no flight leaving Ben Gurion has ever been hijacked. Despite the fact that they are surrounded by their enemies, they live on the most fought over piece of dirt on the planet, and LOTS of people would like to attack them.
So what are they doing different?
When I went through Tel Aviv airport I saw no porno scanner. I did walk through a metal detector, but my belt buckle and loose change did not set it off (it must have been set pretty high). No one looked through my carry-on, no one asked me about liquids, I did not remove my shoes, belt or loose change from my pockets. I did not open my computer. No grandmas were frisked, and no one touched my junk. The process was quick, reasonable, and apparently effective.
In New York, I stood in line for 2 hours. I went through the porno scanner, took off my shoes, belt, loose change, etc. I watched people being degraded. I couldn't believe how horrible the attitudes of the TSA workers were- they looked like a really bad day working at McDonalds. Completely unmotivated and uncooperative. They confiscated a jar of date honey (sealed, and labeled) I had forgotten about in my bag (just in case it goes boom). In doing so, they called in a specialist, made me wait 30 minutes longer, and treated me like a terrorist. Funny, that same jar had not made the security guards in Tel Aviv the least bit concerned.
As I stood in line at NY, I noticed dozens of ways I could have gotten "past" the system. I hope the bad guys didn't notice the same stuff...
Israel uses highly trained security teams both uniformed and under cover. They profile people, and spend a lot of effort asking questions, pulling people out of line to "talk", and comparing the stories of people traveling together. They read faces, and practice interrogation publically. They look directly in your eyes while talking to you (looking for signs of stress). Additionally, since every Israeli citizen has served in the military, there is a strong sense that EVERYONE in the ENTIRE airport is part of the security team. They ALL are on the lookout, they ALL are trained, and they ALL are watching out for each other.
And nothing goes boom.
We are hog-tying ourselves looking for "bad stuff". They look for "bad people". I guess they figure if I'm not a bad guy, it's not really that important if I am carrying a pocket knife or a jar of honey. If I AM a bad guy, I can make a weapon out of ANYTHING.
SVreX has all of this is absolutely correct.
I'm sorry the workers of the TSA are caught in the middle. It's a crap place to be. I know they're just working Joe's and Jane's trying to feed kids and pay bills like anyone else.
The problem is the TSA organization, not the worker, has pitted the TSA guard against the citizen. All with ineffectual security and idiotic thinking. It's the worst kind of government. The kind I will not applaud, support, or wave the flag for.
I can support various parts of my nation all while criticizing the idiotic portions of the government - like the TSA. If you disagree with me I will not suggest you leave the USA just because we disagree. Stick around. We'll hammer something out as long as you're willing to make room for my opinions and needs as well as your own. It's a big country, I think we can do this.
Back on the subject of security:
I travelled to Australia a year or so ago. I travelled to Mexico in August. Both countries had vastly superior security and infinitely more efficient security workers.
Australia had a security person in charge of checking in bags to be scanned AND making sure you made your flight. He would call out flights and usher those people forward. At Dulles when trying to get to CA, our flight was cancelled due to mechanical problems. We were in security with 15 minutes to make the flight. We asked a TSA person how to handle this. Their response "Stand in line."
In Mexico, a security officer while scanning our carry-ons found my wife's nail clippers. He wouldn't let her board with the clippers. Ridiculous I know as there were 10 objects readily at hand that would make a better weapon. The security officer suggested that we allow him to break off the portion of the clippers deemed a threat. We did, and were on our way in less than 5 minutes. In the US I've been questioned for 30 minute over similar situations.
The TSA is not only removing our rights but is ineffective as well. Its is true. Our rights still exist in the constitution but must be enforced to be effective. If no one in government is willing to stand up for your right against illegal search and seizure then it's worthless.
Something else scary for the TSA and government in general, people I normally disagree with....are agreeing on this issue. This fight against the TSA is uniting citizens just like the terrorist attacks on our nation. The next people to align against the TSA will be airports and airlines as they watch their meager profits dwindle further.
May not be safe at work I'm not manhandling you genitals, I'm a man, handling your genitals
Oh dear Lord!
I love the look on the face of Donald the HR Manager in the background while he watches Larry "do his business"
But Wally, you are NOT right!
In reply to Wally:
http://www.sfbg.com/2010/12/07/going-club-or-boarding-airplane
Here is a good one (terrifying one).
In San Francisco it is being proposed that anyone entering a bar with a capacity of more than 100 people must have their ID scanned and that bar must keep the info on file for 15 days.
Really? Come on!
In reply to jrw1621:
Further proof that SF is the poster child for bureaucratic abuse. It's so progressive that it has come full-circle and now has pushed its' own head up its' own azz.
And even more horrific, the progs are openly discriminating against bars with lesser seating capacity.
jrw1621 wrote: http://www.sfbg.com/2010/12/07/going-club-or-boarding-airplane Here is a good one (terrifying one). In San Francisco it is being proposed that anyone entering a bar with a capacity of more than 100 people must have their ID scanned and that bar must keep the info on file for 15 days. Really? Come on!
Versammlung ist verboten. Zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere bitte.
SVreX + one billion gazillion points to you.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Versammlung ist verboten. Zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere bitte.
I lol'd, even though i probobly shouldn't
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/India-protests-envoys-pat-down-US-says-diplomats-not-exempt/articleshow/7072481.cms
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