Gun rights advocates, opinions?

it's the low hanging fruit … they can continue to beat on the gun show loophole and hope to get the shows shut down, because most folk that don't go to the shows don't know this

Bobzilla wrote:

pinchvalve wrote: I register my guns. I put it under the same "meh" category as everything else. Who cares if someone in the government knows that I have a few guns? I feel certain that they are more interested in who has a Barrett .50 under their bed and a copy of Mein Kampf on their Kindle. In fact, those two data points and access to a bell tower should result in a visit from the men in black Suburbans.

I really hope that was meant as sarcasm. If not, it really highlights a serious issue in this country.

Nope, I'm serious. Years ago a fellow in my neighborhood was arrested for making terroristic threats, was found to be mentally unstable, and in possession of a HUGE cache or firearms including a .50 cal that could easily have reached my house from his. As much as I hate to impinge on the rights of anyone, I think major red flags like that should be investigated. If you check out, then enjoy your cool rifle. And I know, who gets to decide who is "OK" right? I just don't buy into the government conspiracy stuff I guess.

Of course, I vote for making changes to the way we treat and deal with the mentally impaired WAY before trying to fix gun ownership issues because thats a bigger problem IMHO, but that's another thread...

novaderrik wrote:

pinchvalve wrote: I register my guns. I put it under the same "meh" category as everything else. Who cares if someone in the government knows that I have a few guns? I feel certain that they are more interested in who has a Barrett .50 under their bed and a copy of Mein Kampf on their Kindle. In fact, those two data points and access to a bell tower should result in a visit from the men in black Suburbans.

thank you for so eloquently stating how you are a part of the problem in this country- the old "if you're doing nothing wrong, then you have nothing to worry about" defense... go back a few posts and read the post about the various ways some guns have already been effectively taken away from law abiding citizens..

OK, so worst case scenario, the government takes my gun away. So now I don't have one for...what? The Russian Invasion? The Zombie Apocalypse? The Government Mandated Work Camps? If any of those things happen, the people who did not register their guns are much better at handling the situation and preserving mankind and the American way of life than me. (I was the first one out in dodgeball every time.) OK, I'm dead, but a gun would not have bought me much more time anyway.

If the issue is that I can no longer defend my home or family because they took my gun away, there are still lots of ways to get a gun and there are weapons you can get without having to register them. Failing all of that, well it's the price you pay to try to keep guns out of the hands of the nut jobs and criminals. You have to pick your battles sometimes, and for me, fighting gun registry is not worth it. For other people, it is important and I say best of luck to them.

I never liked that "I own (insert big rifle here) so I can reach out 1000 yards"

It takes ability, not bore, to shoot accurately long distances. Your average "Joe" probably can't shoot accurately 300 yards regardless of caliber.

Those who can probably won't need a 1/2-inch bore size to do so.

In all fairness, if you lived within a mile and a half from his house then you're within the lethal range of a .22

OK, so worst case scenario, the government takes my gun away. So now I don't have one for...what?

You can't hunt deer effectively with Molotov cocktails or framing nailers... but you can run a bunch of them off.

In reply to Hungary Bill:

Great point.....most don't even know a 50cal takes a good bit of range to even become accurate(it takes some distance for the grouping to actually get smaller).

Just because someone has a big bore gun doesn't mean they have the skill to hit a target with it.

I've been steadily shrinking my groupings with my 30-06 at 6-700yds. 1-300yds just got boring after awhile(too many ovals)

Hungary Bill wrote: I never liked that "I own (insert big rifle here) so I can reach out 1000 yards" It takes ability, not bore, to shoot accurately long distances. Your average "Joe" probably can't shoot accurately 300 yards regardless of caliber. Those who can probably won't need a 1/2-inch bore size to do so. In all fairness, if you lived within a mile and a half from his house then you're within the lethal range of a .22

there's a lot of truth to what you say …

but when I went into the Navy, we had to "qualify" on the rifle range (no uniform dangle for us like the Marine Corp), but we still had to qualify

this was at Recruit Training Command San Diego, Great Lakes and the new (at that time) training center in FL

at San Diego we shot on a 300 yd course (my understanding was that Great Lakes "qualified" indoors with .22's) with M1 Garand's

I had never shot anything more than a BB rifle before boot camp .. shot marksman (barely missed sharpshooter… none of our company shot expert)

In reply to Hungary Bill:

I love that crowd, .50 BMG doesn't even make sense till you hit 1000+ yards, where that big heavy bullet still has plenty of steam behind it. At which point you need to be skilled enough to make sub MOA groupings to hit anything. Which is easier said than done shooting something loud enough its advisable to double up on ear protection, and recoiling enough its recommended you use a bipod to dig in to the ground(also on account of 30lb rifle). In all reality those big rifles are very expensive toys, not something likely to be used in a crime, let alone take down an airliner(this was an argument of some politician a few years back, IIRC, she thought "incendiary" meant the bullet was heat seeking).

I've got an uncle whose hobby is vaporizing squirrels 300 yards away from his back porch, with a heavy barrel .22-250 Rem 700. I bet he spends at least a few hours per kill, weight matching all the components and hand loading them, he went so far as to experiment with counting individual pieces of powder.

In reply to wbjones:

Happen to remember the target size for each distinction at that yardage(I know its asking alot to remember that one) and damn you for making me want a garand to sit next to my ww2 k98.

You don't want a Garand next to your K98. I put mine in the same side of the safe once and the K98 came out all "dinged up".

I would love some food for my Garand right now. I bought it right before I left for Hungary and still haven't had the chance to sit down for some quality time

pinchvalve wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

pinchvalve wrote: I register my guns. I put it under the same "meh" category as everything else. Who cares if someone in the government knows that I have a few guns? I feel certain that they are more interested in who has a Barrett .50 under their bed and a copy of Mein Kampf on their Kindle. In fact, those two data points and access to a bell tower should result in a visit from the men in black Suburbans.

thank you for so eloquently stating how you are a part of the problem in this country- the old "if you're doing nothing wrong, then you have nothing to worry about" defense... go back a few posts and read the post about the various ways some guns have already been effectively taken away from law abiding citizens..

OK, so worst case scenario, the government takes my gun away. So now I don't have one for...what? The Russian Invasion? The Zombie Apocalypse? The Government Mandated Work Camps? If any of those things happen, the people who did not register their guns are much better at handling the situation and preserving mankind and the American way of life than me. (I was the first one out in dodgeball every time.) OK, I'm dead, but a gun would not have bought me much more time anyway. If the issue is that I can no longer defend my home or family because they took my gun away, there are still lots of ways to get a gun and there are weapons you can get without having to register them. Failing all of that, well it's the price you pay to try to keep guns out of the hands of the nut jobs and criminals. You have to pick your battles sometimes, and for me, fighting gun registry is not worth it. For other people, it is important and I say best of luck to them.

what if the government decides that cars are too dangerous for the general public to have and starts confiscating them because they kill thousands of people every year?

or what if they decide that the average person isn't smart enough to operate a propane grill so they start making you register then and taking them from people that don't register their Webers?

would you be ok with the government mandating that you need to be licensed by the state to own and operate a lawn mower on your own property?

yamaha wrote: In reply to wbjones: Happen to remember the target size for each distinction at that yardage(I know its asking alot to remember that one) and damn you for making me want a garand to sit next to my ww2 k98.

keep in mind that this was in 1968 … not all that much I remember from that far back

but as I remember, the target size didn't change, the designations came from how many bullseye's were hit (and how close the misses were)

again as I remember the total target was ~ 6' square … the center was (and this is REALLY fuzzy) … maybe 4" dia. ??? the next ring maybe double that (maybe larger)

novaderrik wrote:

pinchvalve wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

pinchvalve wrote: I register my guns. I put it under the same "meh" category as everything else. Who cares if someone in the government knows that I have a few guns? I feel certain that they are more interested in who has a Barrett .50 under their bed and a copy of Mein Kampf on their Kindle. In fact, those two data points and access to a bell tower should result in a visit from the men in black Suburbans.

thank you for so eloquently stating how you are a part of the problem in this country- the old "if you're doing nothing wrong, then you have nothing to worry about" defense... go back a few posts and read the post about the various ways some guns have already been effectively taken away from law abiding citizens..

OK, so worst case scenario, the government takes my gun away. So now I don't have one for...what? The Russian Invasion? The Zombie Apocalypse? The Government Mandated Work Camps? If any of those things happen, the people who did not register their guns are much better at handling the situation and preserving mankind and the American way of life than me. (I was the first one out in dodgeball every time.) OK, I'm dead, but a gun would not have bought me much more time anyway. If the issue is that I can no longer defend my home or family because they took my gun away, there are still lots of ways to get a gun and there are weapons you can get without having to register them. Failing all of that, well it's the price you pay to try to keep guns out of the hands of the nut jobs and criminals. You have to pick your battles sometimes, and for me, fighting gun registry is not worth it. For other people, it is important and I say best of luck to them.

what if the government decides that cars are too dangerous for the general public to have and starts confiscating them because they kill thousands of people every year? or what if they decide that the average person isn't smart enough to operate a propane grill so they start making you register then and taking them from people that don't register their Webers? would you be ok with the government mandating that you need to be licensed by the state to own and operate a lawn mower on your own property?

Yeah, but that's a lot of what if's. Already, I cant just go out and drive a car if I want to. The government controls that by requiring a test and a license. If you have 5 DUI's and are still driving on a suspended license, the government SHOULD confiscate your car. If you plow through a group of girl scouts, you should have your car taken away (I'm looking at you Hallie Berry). The idea of taking all cars away from all people in the US is ridiculous, it simply can't happen. So why worry about it?

Propane is pretty darn explosive. If people started dying in the thousands from propane-related accidents and you had to register and take a test to be certified to use it, fine by me. What do I care? Same thing already applies to explosives, some welding supplies, fertilizers, lots of chemicals. If I wanted to grill, it would be something I would have to take more seriously. Hey, you can't operate a HAM radio without a special license. Or operate a very large boat. Or drive a big rig.

Same goes for lawnmowers. If children were dying in large numbers every year, and my neighbor regularly was out driving his John Deere drunk, without guards in place, swerving into my yard...yeah. Require that idiot to get a license, and I'll gladly get one too.

These things don't bother me, but honestly, I'm glad they bother you. If we didn't have people on BOTH sides of the issue, then the government could slowly take away our liberties. (I think they would do it to boost profits for private interest groups and not some conspiracy, but the result would be the same.) That's why I like threads like this, especially when they remain civil.

pinchvalve wrote: ... (I'm looking at you Hallie Berry). ...

fap, fap, fap

wbjones wrote:

yamaha wrote: In reply to wbjones: Happen to remember the target size for each distinction at that yardage(I know its asking alot to remember that one) and damn you for making me want a garand to sit next to my ww2 k98.

keep in mind that this was in 1968 … not all that much I remember from that far back but as I remember, the target size didn't change, the designations came from how many bullseye's were hit (and how close the misses were) again as I remember the total target was ~ 6' square … the center was (and this is REALLY fuzzy) … maybe 4" dia. ??? the next ring maybe double that (maybe larger)

Hmmm, I'll have to try that with my k98 to see how I do with open sights sometime. Thank you.

don't take my remembrances as gospel … I'm sure there's a correct answer somewhere on the interwebz

In reply to wbjones:

Probably, but at 300yds with my scoped 700(30-06) I can group within 1.5-2" though, the k98 is my first proper open sighted rifle.

this was open sights … and zero experience … like I said, the only thing I'd ever shot before joining was a BB rifle and then, only occasionally

I could probably done a bit better with a scope

wbjones wrote: it's the low hanging fruit … they can continue to beat on the gun show loophole and hope to get the shows shut down, because most folk that don't go to the shows don't know this

It's only a "loophole" if your goal is the total disarming of the American People.

yamaha wrote: In reply to wbjones: Probably, but at 300yds with my scoped 700(30-06) I can group within 1.5-2" though, the k98 is my first proper open sighted rifle.

I do about the same with a scoped Remington 700 .270

With the rifle clamped to the bench it can connect the dots so I certainly have room for improvement.

You know, I've never shot out past ~100yds. Never really had much need, all of the cans and bottles were closer.

Very nice lady reported a burglary. I call her and we talk about the offense. I then get a call from her insurance agent, very common occurance, who goes over the serial numbers of the stolen property with me. He has a list of stolen guns that the lady reported stolen to him but she never reported them stolen to police.

I called her back and she said that she didn't want the Government having any sort of list or knowledge of the weapons she owned.

All I can say is that for better or worse that lady is committed to her ideas.

So, tell us, Ojala, and any other LEO's. Not to put you on the spot, but I'm curious. Word comes down from your direct report-to: Go to these houses and pick up these guns on this list and any others you can find there. "Suspected of being tea party terrorists having anti-government postings on the internet and active at protest rallies." No-knock raid. You job is on the line here. What are YOU going to do? What do you think the other officers you know are going to do?

Dr. Hess wrote: So, tell us, Ojala, and any other LEO's. Not to put you on the spot, but I'm curious. Word comes down from your direct report-to: Go to these houses and pick up these guns on this list and any others you can find there. "Suspected of being tea party terrorists having anti-government postings on the internet and active at protest rallies." No-knock raid. You job is on the line here. What are YOU going to do? What do you think the other officers you know are going to do?

Not that it puts them on the spot, but that is a question that most LEO and military wouldn't answer for one reason or the other.

Easy answer: Milgram experiment

"I was under orders"