SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
I feel like the messaging is going like this:
Various related engineers: "We told them there were maintenance issues"
Government authorities: "We were unaware of any significant problem, and our inspection process was responsible, but we care and we are here for you"
Media and people who don't understand construction: "OMG, these people didn't take care of their property, and 3 years is a terrible delay"
Its ending up making the condo association the bad guy, while the skilled people who could have corrected the problem (and failed miserably) are avoiding any culpability.
This was poorly handled by everyone at all levels, and they are now dumping it on the condo association and owners (who are NOT the engineering professionals, and DO NOT have the authority to force necessary corrections.
This is a E36 M3 show.
That's a pretty succinct summary of the situation, i agree.
John Welsh said:
Fear of second tower fall halts rescue...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/01/miami-condo-collapse-rescue-halted-victims
It seems odd to still be calling it a rescue. I can't imagine there's anyone left to rescue vs recover.
Steve_Jones said:
John Welsh said:
Fear of second tower fall halts rescue...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/01/miami-condo-collapse-rescue-halted-victims
It seems odd to still be calling it a rescue. I can't imagine there's anyone left to rescue vs recover.
People have survived in collapsed buildings far past the seven days that it has been. I believe the current record is 16 days or so.
Also, in emergency management, there is a BIG difference (and quite clearly delineated) between rescue and recovery. Right now, they'll push as hard as they can to find anybody left alive. They'll risk a lot for that possibility. When it shifts to recovery, the focus becomes more of a methodical deconstruction of the wreckage, and efforts will slow waaay down, because let's face it- bodies are not going anywhere.
Source: Am confined space rescue instructor/emt/search and rescue dood.
John Welsh said:
Fear of second tower fall halts rescue...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/01/miami-condo-collapse-rescue-halted-victims
I've been wondering when that would become a concern...
It's half of the same darned building. It was built the same way, maintained the same way, must have similar deterioration, and it certainly was exposed to forces as the other half came down. Plus, it's currently being reinforced by a 30' high pile of rubble at it's base.
I pray for the safety of the responders.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
It's a little disturbing to think people are spending the night on an apt where the shared wall used to have an apt on the other side of the wall. An apt that is no longer there.
I feel for the people who have everything tied up in this $300 to $700k apt and its continuing mortgage with few resources to pay for another apt, simultaneously.
Further more, just imagine the homeowners insurance debacle this will all be.
In reply to John Welsh :
Are you saying there are still residents in there?
I can't see how that is possible. The utility services can't be functioning. If there is power anywhere in that building, it could kill a responder. Fire sprinkler system, water service, sewage, even data lines have been destroyed.
Its not a separate building. It's HALF of 1 building. There CAN'T be anyone in there.
In reply to John Welsh :
Your article said 1 main support column in that remaining part of the building has moved 6-12" SINCE the responders have been working.
The entire building WILL be coming down. If not by itself, then by wrecking ball.
I'll be shocked if it doesn't fall by itself.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
I have read some parts of the engineering report. The issue I see is that the language used by the engineer wasn't layman enough to highlight the urgency. But in my reading as an engineer involved in facilities, it was a strong enough statement to require a shift in mindset. The problem is the condo association probably doesn't have facilities experience to institute emergency repairs, halt new condo sales, and award a longer term A&E contract to monitor the situation and devise short term (within 1 year) structural repair before development of complete building repair.
I can't see an engineer writing "the building is going to fall if you don't do X by this date." That would be sensational and based on too far a reach with opinion of future deterioration. The snapshot that the engineer sees is just that, a moment in time evaluation.
The government folks seem to have deferred to the condo association, which if fair, given that the 40 year assessment had not started yet. Unless a condo owner reported a major issue to the government they would assume the actions taken from 2018 were good.
At the end of the day it is an accident. Everyone involved COULD have done differently to save lives that have been lost. But it seems, so far, that everyone acted in good faith, but obviously didn't make the right choices.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to John Welsh :
Are you saying there are still residents in there?
I remember hearing the press conference a day or two after the collapse that the local government did require the remaining building to be evacuated by order. But not sure if that was just making an official declaration to allow the former residents to make claims to FEMA, local, and insurance entities. Or if that meant some people were still trying to stay inside.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to John Welsh :
Are you saying there are still residents in there?
I can't see how that is possible. The utility services can't be functioning. If there is power anywhere in that building, it could kill a responder. Fire sprinkler system, water service, sewage, even data lines have been destroyed.
Its not a separate building. It's HALF of 1 building. There CAN'T be anyone in there.
Exactly. I can't imagine there was anyone left in the remaining units by lunchtime on Thursday of last, if that late. I can see emergency services saying, "Grab your family and pets and get the hell out, NOW!"
Which I would imagine people with even half a brain wouldn't even need to be told that.
z31maniac said:
Which I would imagine people with even half a brain wouldn't even need to be told that.
Consider the area. Half a brain goes a long way.
No one lives on what remains of the building, believe me.
There were talks about actually moving people out of its sister building.
In reply to iansane :
Is it the proximity to Canada that brings out the pompousness or is it just the weather?
In reply to bobzilla :
It's the weather. Definitely the weather.
KyAllroad said:
Morbid thought. With more than 140 people "missing" in 90 degree heat.....things are going to start smelling really rough soon. That's something like 24,000 lbs of decomposing meat. It's gonna be bad.
Nothing a little Vicks can't help.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:
KyAllroad said:
Morbid thought. With more than 140 people "missing" in 90 degree heat.....things are going to start smelling really rough soon. That's something like 24,000 lbs of decomposing meat. It's gonna be bad.
Nothing a little Vicks can't help.
Past a certain point, even vicks doesn't help.
And, this NY Post article further says...
“Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the foundation,” Espinosa told the outlet.
That feels like a smoking gun to me (granted, a lay person!).
If the saltwater is coming up through the basement that means that the concrete/rebar pilings underneath the structure were being exposed as well. Combined with soil erosion from the tides and it's easy to envision a scenario where the failure of one of the pilings leads to a cascading failure of the building itself.
From my understanding of Florida condo history the early 80's were the first wave of high-rise condo construction. Additional pressures were put on the builders because of the high interest rates of the time. These buildings are really, really, common on the FL coast and I would guess the construction methods were very similar. If the pilings were the things that failed I don't know how you can inspect them.
After re-reading this it sounds like breathless disaster porn. Am I nuts?
In reply to CrustyRedXpress :
The NY Post is the LEAST credible news source in New York, and that's an unidentified source.
Not a smoking gun.
I think we should let the pros do their job.
Charleston has concrete buildings that see salt water on a normal high tide and have since the 60s and 70s. Half the city is built on marsh and garbage dumps. Not to mention all the concrete bridges around here that have survived 75+ years. Just about everything on the peninsula is sitting on 100'+ concrete piling. Properly built and maintained, the salt shouldn't damage the building.
If it was, it's an engineering and design issue or substandard construction. It also sounds like the place was a maintenance nightmare that hasn't been properly taken care of in a long time.
The lawyers are going to be drooling over this one.
I betting the inspection term is going to be shortened rather significantly. Probably from 40 years to 10-15.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
The Post is reporting what the former maintenance manager (William Espinosa) reported to a CBS station in Miami last week.
https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/06/20/condo-collapse-former-maintenance-manager-william-espinosa-was-concerned-about-saltwater-intrusion/
Espinosa worked there from 1995 to 2000, meaning the intrusion had been happening for decades. From the above article:
"The cause of the collapse will likely take months to determine, but the condo association’s attorney said after the collapse building managers discovered a large hole under the building which may have been caused by saltwater intrusion."
In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :
Wait, so how does one inspect a 100' concrete piling in an area with known sea-water intrusion? I assume the pilings originally had some sort of water barrier...right?
CrustyRedXpress said:
If the pilings were the things that failed I don't know how you can inspect them.
We inspect piles all the time. It is simple you dig a hole. It is usually all handwork. In Boston, the problem is that the groundwater levels have reseeded and the old wooden piles become exposed and then they rot. Very common problem. This is a big issue in the back bay and other parts of the city that were built on reclaimed/man-made land.
I have designed several water recharge systems over the years (using rain water from the building roof) trying to mitigate this problem.
I assume this building was on friction piles with concrete pile caps? Does anyone know? This was all reclaimed land? I highly dought that the tides had anything to do with this but who knows. Like I said I am betting that there are multiple things that came together that lead to the collapse. Again let the experts with access to real information do their job. While speculation is normal it is not helpful and can propagate inaccurate information. It is often used to promote agendas as people are very emotional in these situations and those with agendas know this. Worse yet is when you have lawmakers enacting regulation changes before they even know what the cause was because they feel like they have to do something. I understand why they want to do this (they feel like they have to do something) and if they don't they will get hammered by the constituents but calmer heads need to prevail.
About the only thing I would condone right now is enacting mandated inspections of buildings in the area but there is the question of by who? (state inspectors or inspection/engineering firms) and obviously, there will be costs for this. Maybe there could be a federal grant to help subsidize the inspections for immediately mandated inspections and then future ones on a tighter schedule will be paid for by property owners. In the city of Boston, mid-rise and high-rise buildings have to have facade inspections every 5 years by a registered professional and a stamped report filed with the city. (Because big pieces of glass falling out of a skyscraper can ruin a pedestrians day) Buildings can lose their COA if they fail to do this.
One of these posts finally hit home for me. I kept reading "40 yo structure" and I'm thinking "yeah, anything built in the 60's like that would be deteriorating". This was built in the 80's Crap I'm older than I remembered
Mr_Asa
UberDork
7/2/21 1:16 p.m.
In reply to bobzilla :
Hell, I was built in the 80s and I barely think of myself as being in my 30s. Near 40 is right out
