Hate

There seems to be a lot of it around these days--so much so, I'm almost afraid to bring it up for fear it will stir up a E36 M3storm. Still, I can't help wondering what's going on, and we've got people here from all walks, so I'd love to hear what you think.

I understand we're faced with some big issues, but that's certainly nothing new. My parents survived orphaning, a depression, social upheaval and several wars without becoming absolutely et up with hatred. Matter of fact, they used to admonish me when I said "hate," pointing out that it was a most awful word. Which it is. And now here we are, with "town hall" meetings featuring almost routinized death threats and ample displays of weaponry. It seems we have no civilized discourse left in this country.

I'm not looking for a he-said she-said scenario here; I don't care who's right and who's wrong on the "issues," 'cause we're idiots if we don't see that the main issue is that we've created an ugly, ugly, world that isn't getting any better. I just want to know: Is this a lack of home training? A needed catharsis? A necessary swing of the pendulum back toward the dark ages and an eventual culling of the herd? (FYI there, though, for "culling" fans: the herd is... YOU.)

Can we even discuss this any more?

Margie

I am well informed, and know what the fuss is all about. Really, though, in the big scheme of things...this is not Armageddon. The economy will rebound, socialized medicine will surely fail, and our crack two party system can continue to dilute politics, business as usual.

(my first and only political rant has been brought to you by Brawndo)

Unfortunately the admonition "Some people's kids!" is all too often now-a-days "Too many people's kids." The phrase may be trite, but really as a society, can't we just all get along. There is too much hate and intolerance these days, in my opinion at least.

I agree. There does seem to be a lot of hate being spread around these days... Or maybe not so much hate, but a general lack of tolerance and/or selfishness. "If it's not good for me, then screw 'em!" or, "if I don't like it, then it must be EVIL." Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to hate than it is to tolerate. And tough economic times tend to put people under stress and more susceptible to being hateful. Also, opportunists throughout history have taken advantage of a disgruntled populace to further their own person agendas.

How to reverse it? That's difficult. For one, a working populace is a complacent (if not always "happy") populace. Don't give people enough free time to think about how unhappy they are.

Simply put, what we are going through now is not new. But on the positive side, it will not last forever.

I think it's the Internet's fault....

Seriously, way too many people these days believe every half baked rumor they get in their email. I can't figure out why so many people actually think that "end of life counseling" means assisted suicide, and that's just one example...Presidential birth certificates, ammunition shortage conspiracy theories, it goes on and on.

I was watching some of the townhall stuff on Teevee.. I cannot beleive I watched some old guy scream at the top of his voice at a politicion who was TRYING to explain what was going on to the point where nobody got to hear it..

how come they do not remove these idiots from the meetings?

Personally, if I was a politician, I would just stand there with a bemused look on my face until he was done and red and purple in the face and ask if he was done.

I do agree there is too much hate.. life is too short to be miserable

I have been developing a theory. Hope I don’t ramble too much.

In our society the newest forms of communication are email and message boards like this and others. With a board I can espouse an opinion and then figuratively walk away; I don’t have to respond to criticisms unless if I chose to read it. Also if they counter it coherently I am still relatively anonymous. We have become accustomed to these abilities and perhaps forgotten a little how to communicate civilly, particularly face to face.

If I voice my opinion verbally in public when others are there then I will hear and be expected to respond to their criticisms then and there. I am no longer anonymous. It is more difficult to ignore them. I am expected to defend my view coherently. Human nature being what it is pride gets in the way and I respond with verbal threats and name-calling. My opponent does the same and a vicious cycle forms.

It takes more self-control than most of us have to not degenerate into this cycle. I am not taking sides here, I have my opinion on many things and I am sure you do also. I am willing to defend to the death your right to have your opinion and even voice it. In the current political climate in America we have more than one side. All have at some point resorted to name calling and threats, even taunts. The right to disagree with others is vital to the freedom enjoyed in our republic.

This theory is a work in progress and I am sure even hope, I will change it many times. If I don’t change my mind I will never learn anything. I welcome others in-put, particularly those more leaned than I.

BT

I think you pretty much nailed it. Right on.

Pure plain hatred? No, I'm not seeing that. I see a lot of people deeply concerned about what's happening and getting vocal about it. Right now it's the so called right wing types at the town hall meetings getting all the attention; not too long back it was Moveon.org and Howard Dean, etc. making all the noise and grabbing the headlines with vicious rhetoric.

As far as someone yelling at a politician at a town hall meeting: maybe, just maybe, the yeller feels screwed by said politician. (Having experienced first hand the indifference (and almost hostility) of a couple of politicians, maybe I can understand his anger even if I don't agree with the method of getting it across.) Maybe this is the only chance he's had to get his point across. Maybe he didn't choose the best method to do so because he feels circumstance has forced his hand. So maybe it's not hate but rather a deep frustration, poorly expressed. Man, I can identify with THAT.

Still, no one should bring an assault weapon to a town hall meeting. That's just plain grandstanding for attention (not to mention a helluva good way to get on a Secret Service/FBI watch list), not a lot different from flagpole sitting way back when.

Having as a kid watched on TV first hand what happened during the dark days of the '60's civil rights movements and the KKK etc backlash, I think what's happening now is comparatively benign, at least there's no church bombings or water cannons or an Emmett Till.

Jensenman wrote: ... So maybe it's not hate but rather a deep frustration, poorly expressed. Man, I can identify with THAT.

That's fairly profound. Well said.

I'm not sure hate ever goes out of style. The only fashion that changes is how you are allowed to express it. These days, you can't challenge politicians to a dual with pistols if you dislike their policy. You can't lynch the black guy who asked a white girl on a date. You can't solve the national debt problem by accusing your financial backers of witchcraft, have them burnt at the stake, and confiscating their money. Nowadays, you can't form posses and rampage through the streets with clubs, beating up people who are wearing inappropriate clothing. (Oh wait... you can do that in Saudi Arabia.)

On the other hand, loony political accusations are a timeless classic. Thomas Jefferson had to deal with weirdos who wrote pamphlets accusing him of wanting to bring back monarchy.

I think people are just plain too evil for us to be anything like successful at stamping out hate. But you can put down some sensible rules requiring a bit of basic civility at a debate, and throw out anyone who won't agree to play nice. You don't have to be loud and obnoxious to get the point across. There was one time here in Atlanta an unpopular Olympics official was introduced to a crowd - and instead of booing him, the entire audience simply sat there silently where he expected applause.

stuart in mn wrote: I can't figure out why so many people actually think that "end of life counseling" means assisted suicide,

I really don't think that many people think "end of life counseling" means assisted suicide so much as they think it will mean withheld services that might prolong life... with there being a finite amount of services available and with the potential for that availability to become even more diluted ,,,,,

So after a couple pulls on the ol' Kahlua bottle I'll hit you with my Grand Theory of Why. Somebody way smarter than me probably came up with this before, but this is what I seem to observe.

The most basic traits that all people share are fear,and an innate, hardwired desire for order and meaning. Our brains simply can't wrap themselves around meaninglessness for very long. We need to connect the dots, straighten the lines, and join the curves. I don't think that's any great personality flaw, I think it's just the way we're built.

We're also terrified. Of everything.

Most prominently, we're terrified of the meaninglessness that our minds simply cannot comprehend. Our greatest fear seems to be that we're simply bags of meat on a ball of rock hurtling through space. After all, if that's true, then what's the point to anything? We need purpose. We need to be special. We need direction. We do not want to be on our own.

To make ourselves special, we look to things that we place on an order of magnitude higher than ourselves. Because our gods are superior to us, it gives us purpose, but also removes one level of responsibility from us, since we can always pass the buck upstairs to our supervisor. They put us here, because they have a plan for us. We need to do something. We're special.

So, in this quest for meaning and purpose, we attempt to communicate with each other. After all, if we can be heard, and possibly affect the life of another, haven't we done our part to create some meaning? So we yell, and we scream, and we print, and we post, and we sing, and we joke and we pray that it bounces back off of something in that void and comes back to us, because that will mean someone cares, and what we did meant something.

At some point, we don't even seem to care that we get negative reactions. We're so afraid of being irrelevant that ANY reaction is proof that we mean something.

And I think that's where things started to go off the rails. Communication has become so easy and so prevalent that it became ubiquitous. It's all background noise now. So in order to be recognized out of the void you have to yell louder than anyone else, and care less about the reaction.

It's an interesting aside to note that conspiracy nuts have been screaming for decades about a "surveillance society" where our every move is monitored and recorded. Well, guess what? We've got it. But "they" didn't do it to us, we practically demanded it. Now our every move is YouTubed, Twittered, Facebooked and blogged, and not so Big Brother can monitor us, but so we can hope somebody—anybody—sees us.

So, anyhoozle, that my take. We don't so much hate each other as we hate the prospect of our own irrelevance.

Me? I pretty much subscribe to the "bag of meat—ball of rock" theory. But it's a pretty fun ball of rock, and there's some pretty interesting bags of meat running around on it, so I figure I may as well enjoy my time here and try to get along.

jg

Jensenman wrote: Pure plain hatred? No, I'm not seeing that. I see a lot of people deeply concerned about what's happening and getting vocal about it. Right now it's the so called right wing types at the town hall meetings getting all the attention; not too long back it was Moveon.org and Howard Dean, etc. making all the noise and grabbing the headlines with vicious rhetoric. As far as someone yelling at a politician at a town hall meeting: maybe, just maybe, the yeller feels screwed by said politician. (Having experienced first hand the indifference (and almost hostility) of a couple of politicians, maybe I can understand his anger even if I don't agree with the method of getting it across.) Maybe this is the only chance he's had to get his point across. Maybe he didn't choose the best method to do so because he feels circumstance has forced his hand. So maybe it's not hate but rather a deep frustration, poorly expressed. Man, I can identify with THAT. Still, no one should bring an assault weapon to a town hall meeting. That's just plain grandstanding for attention (not to mention a helluva good way to get on a Secret Service/FBI watch list), not a lot different from flagpole sitting way back when. Having as a kid watched on TV first hand what happened during the dark days of the '60's civil rights movements and the KKK etc backlash, I think what's happening now is comparatively benign, at least there's no church bombings or water cannons or an Emmett Till.

Quoted for truth!

Damn J-man you is smarter than you look!

I would have to say that narcissism is a big contributor to the way people behave. We live in a me society. No one is concerned with anything other than themselves. The politicians aren't concerned with the well being of the country as a whole, just what will get them re-elected. The populace isn't concerned with the country as a whole either. They want to know what the government can give them.

It used to be that poor behavior had consequences. When my parents grew up, being a jerk to your peers would likely get you a butt cutting from said peer. In todays society a knock down drag out fight isn't acceptable so there isn't any correction applied for boorish behavior. When my dad was in high school, fights weren't stopped by the coach, they were supervised to make sure that no one was seriously injured. It taught people to respect one another even when they didn't agree.

Parents have been told over and over that a misbehaving child should be talked to and reasoned with rather than swiftly and firmly corrected. There are a lot of children that have no idea what proper behavior is. They have acted that way all their lives and no one has told them other wise. They have also never been taught to control their emotions. So when they don't "get their way" they throw a temper tantrum. The "hate" just flows freely. What you are seeing in these town hall meeting now and in the media when Bush was president is adults throwing temper tantrums because their parents never taught them that it isn't acceptable behavior.

The bad part is it is going to get worse. Until something happens to show people what is really important in life and what is acceptable, they will never change, and their kids will be worse than they were.

Being civil in a disagreement is a skill that isn't taught anymore. If you have kids please teach them so when they grow up they aren't on national TV showing the world what lousy parents you were.

Dr. Pasterjak did a great job of summing up my general viewpoint.

Jensenman, thank you for putting it so eloquently simple.

Alot of us are just concerned, very concerned that this country is being taken down the wrong path.

But the KKK, Emmit Till, bombing didn't just start overnight. It was this type of environment (like our current evironment, 'them vs us") that led up to an escalation of pure craziness.

My parents lived through that and I have had my dose of hatred bs in my 40 + years of existence. I must say the country's attitude is a bit negative. I have noticed politcians and certain cable channels trying to fan the flames of "us vs them".

What is more telling is that there this conversation on the issue. That is light years from where we were in the 60's. So congrats on that.

But, bring this conversation to less sophisticated audiences and you will have a e36 M3 #$%^ storm

Agreed in some aspects. Glen Beck and Oberman or not the same type of thing.

But I don't care who is carrying a rifle (or gun) around where the president is it is not a good thing Our country has a history of trying to get presidents:

Assassinations: Abraham Lincoln James A. Garfield William McKinley John F. Kennedy

Attempted assassinations: Andrew Jackson Abraham Lincoln Theodore Roosevelt Franklin D. Roosevelt Harry S Truman John F. Kennedy Richard Nixon Gerald Ford Jimmy Carter Ronald Reagan George H.W. Bush Bill Clinton George W. Bush

Tifosi2k2 wrote: I think 'hate' is the wrong word. I agree with Jensenman that its a "deep frustration." We have people who are genuinely upset with the way things are going attending town hall meetings, expressing themselves, and their thoughts are being disregarded as being manufactured. Their voices are not being heard, and there is an air of superiority and frankly, alot of hypocrisy on the part of our leaders. You have Nancy Pelosi saying it's not a grassroots effort, it's "astro turf". And maybe that IS the case in some instances, but it's straight out of their own playbook; ACORN anyone? The uproar over the Obama 'joker' poster thats popping up; where was the uproar when Bush was made into a 'joker' poster? Pelosi, in 2006, was a fan of protestors: Fan of protestors...... Yet here we are 3 years later, and she say the protestors are carrying "swastikas" to a meeting on heathcare:Swastikas and that protestors are "unamerican." It's no wonder people are frustrated. All that aside, I think our biggest problem is that we have irresponsible "journalists." They are all pundits in journalist disguise. Both the right and left are guilty. Fox news has Glen Beck railing about FEMA Death Camps, "Obama's a racist", and death panels. Don't get me started on Bill O'Reilly. On the flip side you have Keith Olberman, enough said. An example from MSNBC regarding the carrying of firearms at townhall meetings:MSNBC- RacistsI It's all about "racism." Funny how they edited the video of the man carrying the rifle....... yeah, because he was black. Kind of hard to scream "racist" when it's a black man who is carrying. Dishonest reporting; how many people saw that and took it as fact? We have a serious problem with very irresponsible news agencies.

Jensenman wrote: Still, no one should bring an assault weapon to a town hall meeting. That's just plain grandstanding for attention (not to mention a helluva good way to get on a Secret Service/FBI watch list), not a lot different from flagpole sitting way back when.

As a fellow gun owner, and defender of 2nd Amendment rights, I applaud these people for exercising their LEGAL rights; no one was breaking the law. However, with those rights come responsibility and more importantly, judgement. I think it is very poor judgement to carry a gun, openly, to a venue where the President of the United States is present. I fear in exercising their rights, they are damaging our cause. The only legal reason to carry a weapon is self defense. Plain and simple, to defend yourself and your family against any eventuality. Does a person really need this sort of protection at a venue that has been locked down by the best armed guards in the history of the world? Probably not. Poor judgement, and if it continues it will only end poorly, unfortunately not just for the perpetrators, but also for the rest of us.

wbjones wrote: I really don't think that many people think "end of life counseling" means assisted suicide so much as they think it will mean withheld services that might prolong life...

This is actually (I believe) a prime example of hates always present sibling, fear. The "suicide" they are referring to is (I believe) actually a DNR order (do not resuscitate) which of course would allow someone to die that might be kept alive (many time is a state many would prefer not to). Hardly suicide, but fear (and LOTS of strange twisting of the intent) had grown this to its absurd conclusion.

The hate and fear seem to stem from what can only be called "extremism". A very over used word, but probably appropriate for what seems to be coming out of those who argue this and even some areas of what can be called "media". Why do the do it? Well its one of the oldest reasons, money, which is made from ratings. Sadly many of these "extremists" have very good rating.

The extremism amazes me. Reminds me of what I like to call the "Michel Moore Effect". That is, arguing a point to such an absurd extreme that the net result make your argument far less powerful since it is now so easy to disprove some many areas of it.

A phrase that I think is very appropriate in many of these situations is:

"The truth (as usual) lies somewhere in between"

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise........and tyrannize their teachers.

ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato,

I don't want to be mistaken for a naive optimist, but I go out everyday and have pleasant interactions with a bunch of people.

Also, I talk to people who are knowledgeable and interested in their professions/businesses, on a regular basis.

It's probable that many of these people have different political beliefs than myself.

The internet and anonymity in general can facilitate people being shiny happy people...

but we should get our views of people more from our daily lives and less from internet chatter and places where tensions run high.

I enjoy some political discussion, some people are ate up by it.

-James

well from someone who doesnt really follow polotics. and consider myself politically un educated. i say give him a chance. he has only been in office for a bit. granted it doesnt take long to really mess stuff up. but i must say i belive that the health care deal is gonna blow up and be just another unregulated govt thing.. like i said i dont follow polotics. so there is a pretty good chance im just dumb.. but i kinda live and die by the wait and see... so who knows.. most of what i said prob doesnt make any sense so pardon my political mumblings.

Guess you have never lived in Louisiana?

jamscal wrote: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise........and tyrannize their teachers. ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, I don't want to be mistaken for a naive optimist, but I go out everyday and have pleasant interactions with a bunch of people. Also, I talk to people who are knowledgeable and interested in their professions/businesses, on a regular basis. It's probable that many of these people have different political beliefs than myself. The internet and anonymity in general can facilitate people being shiny happy people... but we should get our views of people more from our daily lives and less from internet chatter and places where tensions run high. I enjoy some political discussion, some people are ate up by it. -James

Didn't read all of the posts, I promise I will later (playing cards with the wife and took a break to read). We are faaaar from the levels of hate we have had many times in the history of man. Killing people because of nation of origin, skin color, social class, religion, etc... has been common throughout history. We are in an era of flamboyant portrayals of hate. We are raised to hate less and act on hate less so we put on giant shows of hate over less personal things. The end-back to cards.

Yelling someone down at a town hall meeting is piss poor manners.

It's 100% fine to disagree with the person speaking. It's fine to voice that. It's not fine to drown someone else out to the detriment of others, particularly even before they get the chance to say something.

I can understand being frustrated, but it's still not a good enough reason to be that level of selfish. Nor is it a good reason to act like a fool and flash a piece around. That is Taliban E36 M3. It's the sort of thing people do to intimidate others.

All that said, I think political parties are a waste of time and money. They are interested in the continuance of the party, rewarding their upper echelons, and very little else.

cb wrote: well from someone who doesnt really follow polotics. and consider myself politically un educated. i say give him a chance. he has only been in office for a bit. granted it doesnt take long to really mess stuff up. but i must say i belive that the health care deal is gonna blow up and be just another unregulated govt thing.. like i said i dont follow polotics. so there is a pretty good chance im just dumb.. but i kinda live and die by the wait and see... so who knows.. most of what i said prob doesnt make any sense so pardon my political mumblings.

While I'm disappointed you don't follow politics, since they directly affect you, I commend your honesty. I would respectfully request, however, that you don't vote if this is how you choose to be.

2 quick points on facts: the guy with the rifle was a "plant" to gain publicity. He was black. In that state it is legal to carry such a weapon in public. It was a test of law enforcement at the scene and a publicity stunt. Ignore it. Also, Glen Beck on the FEMA camps...he reported on them...to DEBUNK them. If you don't watch the show and get your Beck info from web sites, you're not going to get an honest view. I don't care if you like Beck or not (or Olbermann or anyone else), but don't ASSume you know the story if you haven't seen the reportage with your own eyes and ears.

ADD moment: remember, the news will only show you the WORST of what is at these town hall meetings. Most, while having some lively discussion, are not full of screaming whackos from the extreme fringe. Now that these are a news item, more and more "plants" will be at these things to gain headlines. Ignore them.

Back to the topic at hand: I think a large portion of the hate we're talking about is related to politics and the issues they fight over. I have decided, after much consideration, that the two parties are playing us like two football teams. You have to pick ONE. The other one is, of course, the arch rival. How many of us have said "I hate the Eagles" or "I hate the Yankees"? Same concept. They've figured out that if we 'hate' the other side we'll fight it in an uglier, more rancid fashion than if we just had sane discussions. Politicians want us to be divided. They want the hate. The more people in the two camps, the easier we are to manipulate. Independent voters are the worst thing in the world to them. So, they push the 'hate' thing. Bush haters. Obama racists (haters). They are playing us against each other to their benefit.

I don't aplaud someone for exersizing there legal right to carry a firearm like that to a function like that. I love guns. I do. I can touch one from where I sit right know and see three others. People have the freedom of speach as well but there are some things that I wont applaud someone for saying even though it's there right to say them. (Im thinking of the funeral protestors) Open carry Is an interesting concept. But all it proves is that you have a very small penis. It simply makes someone look very insecure and scared. It's like the whole "armed society is a polite society " bit. I think that's crap. That makes people be nice to you because they are afraid of you. I want people to be nice to me because they respect me, not fear me.

But, this thread has gotten more political (I'm guilty as well!) than Margie wanted it to. I think the reason people are such jerks, is that the far left and far right are the vocal ones. The far out ones seem to be getting futher out, and more vocal. They are the ones you hear about. 90 percent of us are much more in the middle, and quite amused by the loud ones. I also think the Internet has made many idiots feel well Informed when they are just repeating the same crap someone else is repeating from yet someone else. (Miata.net anyone...?)

Joey