Herman Cain

Otto Maddox wrote: 9-9-9 Analysis with links to more of the same

The 9-9-9 thing gets a lot of press considering it's only one phase of a triple-restructuring of the tax codes...

HiTempguy wrote:

ppddppdd wrote: Cain's plan is regressive as hell

Because your current system isn't, right? L O L

It isn't regressive enough for me. A flat tax based on consumption makes the most sense. No IRS to deal with, no deductions, nothing. You buy something, you pay tax on it. The system is already in place anywhere you pay local sales tax. You get your whole pay check every single time. It is pretty hard to dodge a consumption tax unless you want to import your toilet paper from Canada. But too many sacred cows live in the tax code for it to ever happen.

In reply to slefain:

Have you ever been out of the country? I find it quite easy to come up with ways to avoid consumption tax, especially if you live near a border, and even more so if you have the means.

So I can earn all of my money in the US, save $5M (which isn't as hard as it seems), and move overseas. Save me $450,000 doing that.

Oh, so many holes in a consumption tax. A lot fewer holes in a transaction tax, but still enough to drive loopholes to other countries.

Every time new taxes and tax burdon comes up, someone will post the analogy of the kid who brings the ball to play with his friends. Well, this is the one where it's, by far, the easiest for the kid to find other friends in a different neighborhood.

i'm sorry, alfa.

I think i missed something.

Could you fire off a few ways to avoid consumption tax that wouldn't work under other taxations types?

alfadriver wrote: In reply to slefain: Have you ever been out of the country? I find it quite easy to come up with ways to avoid consumption tax, especially if you live near a border, and even more so if you have the means. So I can earn all of my money in the US, save $5M (which isn't as hard as it seems), and move overseas. Save me $450,000 doing that. Oh, so many holes in a consumption tax. A lot fewer holes in a transaction tax, but still enough to drive loopholes to other countries. Every time new taxes and tax burdon comes up, someone will post the analogy of the kid who brings the ball to play with his friends. Well, this is the one where it's, by far, the easiest for the kid to find other friends in a different neighborhood.

Anyone make $5M a year already has a group of lawyers and accountants making sure they hit every tax loophole in the book. I know how that works, seen it first hand. "I had to come to the charity auction tonight, my accountant says I need another $80k in deductions. That's why I bought the trip to Tahiti and the Porsche lease."

Sure there are ways around the consumption tax, but how many people are going to go out of their way to barter or import stuff they need every day? If what you are talking about is smuggling goods, we already have a system in place to prevent that. Try driving to Canada and bringing back a trunk full of cigarettes or beer. As for other way to makes money under the table, even drug dealers need toilet paper.

slefain wrote: Try driving to Canada and bringing back a trunk full of cigarettes or beer. As for other way to makes money under the table, even drug dealers need toilet paper.

Hehe walked across the boarder with 10 bottles of liquor and 2 cases of beer.

93EXCivic wrote:

slefain wrote: Try driving to Canada and bringing back a trunk full of cigarettes or beer. As for other way to makes money under the table, even drug dealers need toilet paper.

Hehe walked across the boarder with 10 bottles of liquor and 2 cases of beer.

I'll admit, that is impressive. Molson and Canadian Mist?

How many people would want a Cain/McCain ticket just because the bumper stickers would look cool.

slefain wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

slefain wrote: Try driving to Canada and bringing back a trunk full of cigarettes or beer. As for other way to makes money under the table, even drug dealers need toilet paper.

Hehe walked across the boarder with 10 bottles of liquor and 2 cases of beer.

I'll admit, that is impressive. Molson and Canadian Mist?

Rickards, Crown Royal and Absinthe

In reply to tuna55:

yeah sounds great to me!

tuna55 wrote:

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to aussiesmg: Well, he did get a CEO job where he proceeded to make the company less than half its previous size while firing a ton of employees. He did restore profitablitity by doing this. I am not sure how that plan would work for the US as a whole.

Perfectly!

exactly, sorry I was slow rezponding I am out working to pay taxes to support 47% of the community

I wonder who will call me a racist now I have revealled my support for Mr Cain

aussiesmg wrote: I wonder who will call me a racist now I have revealled my support for Mr Cain

Harry Belafonte for starters.

Bwaahaaaha

In reply to aussiesmg:

Saying we did chop the waste like crazy. Say we cut federal spending by 20%. What effect do you think that would have on the short term economy. I am not sure if you guys are saying that it would sink the economy in the short term, but it would be worth it in the long term, or alternatively, if you are saying that such cuts wouldn't cause a major drop in the short term economy?

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to aussiesmg: Saying we did chop the waste like crazy. Say we cut federal spending by 20%. What effect do you think that would have on the short term economy. I am not sure if you guys are saying that it would sink the economy in the short term, but it would be worth it in the long term, or alternatively, if you are saying that such cuts wouldn't cause a major drop in the short term economy?

not just waste, but social programs that people actually use today as well.

The transients are going to be difficult. Orchestrating what shuts down when will be tough, absolutely. I don't doubt that. I can't say what the broad reach of the economy would be since there are limitless ways of doing it.

madmallard wrote: i'm sorry, alfa. I think i missed something. Could you fire off a few ways to avoid consumption tax that wouldn't work under other taxations types?

Since most taxes are income, I would already have it, so that's pretty easy to get around. And there are places that do not have much in ways of consuption taxes.

Or are you so naive to think that there would not be tax haves created out of ideas like this? Remember prohibition- Ontario also outlawed drinking, but Canadian Club was made in Windsor, fully legally, and smuggled into the US.

It's not as if there are not tax havens already in the Caribbean for companies- so lets not fool ourselves there.

The "problem" is the sales tax part of it. It would have to be adjusted to skip the basics such as food (as most state sales taxes do). The idea is to have a consumption tax, rather than an income tax. The idea is that a consumption tax would encourage earning, saving and investing versus spending. Sales taxes do tend to be regressive, however, if you skip the basics, they also tend to be optional. You can choose how much tax you pay by how much you decide to spend. To some extent, property taxes are the same way. You don't have to buy property (or that more expensive property) to pay them.

Having just moved from a property tax oriented state to a state with an income tax, I can tell you which I prefer!

slefain wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to slefain: Have you ever been out of the country? I find it quite easy to come up with ways to avoid consumption tax, especially if you live near a border, and even more so if you have the means. So I can earn all of my money in the US, save $5M (which isn't as hard as it seems), and move overseas. Save me $450,000 doing that. Oh, so many holes in a consumption tax. A lot fewer holes in a transaction tax, but still enough to drive loopholes to other countries. Every time new taxes and tax burdon comes up, someone will post the analogy of the kid who brings the ball to play with his friends. Well, this is the one where it's, by far, the easiest for the kid to find other friends in a different neighborhood.

Anyone make $5M a year already has a group of lawyers and accountants making sure they hit every tax loophole in the book. I know how that works, seen it first hand. "I had to come to the charity auction tonight, my accountant says I need another $80k in deductions. That's why I bought the trip to Tahiti and the Porsche lease." Sure there are ways around the consumption tax, but how many people are going to go out of their way to barter or import stuff they need every day? If what you are talking about is smuggling goods, we already have a system in place to prevent that. Try driving to Canada and bringing back a trunk full of cigarettes or beer. As for other way to makes money under the table, even drug dealers need toilet paper.

Worked really well during prohibition. If you discount all of the crime and violence, that is. So well that the consitutional amendment has to be re-amended..

BTW, my $5M is over a carreer- 30 years of work. Not nearly as hard to save up as one may think.

In reply to alfadriver:

You have $5M?

alfadriver wrote:

madmallard wrote: i'm sorry, alfa. I think i missed something. Could you fire off a few ways to avoid consumption tax that wouldn't work under other taxations types?

Since most taxes are income, I would already have it, so that's pretty easy to get around. And there are places that do not have much in ways of consuption taxes. Or are you so naive to think that there would not be tax haves created out of ideas like this? Remember prohibition- Ontario also outlawed drinking, but Canadian Club was made in Windsor, fully legally, and smuggled into the US. It's not as if there are not tax havens already in the Caribbean for companies- so lets not fool ourselves there.

You have not answered the question, Eric. How is the 9-9-9 plan unable to capture taxes which we are able to accurate capture today?

Basil Exposition wrote: The "problem" is the sales tax part of it. It would have to be adjusted to skip the basics such as food (as most state sales taxes do). The idea is to have a consumption tax, rather than an income tax. The idea is that a consumption tax would encourage earning, saving and investing versus spending. Sales taxes do tend to be regressive, however, if you skip the basics, they also tend to be optional. You can choose how much tax you pay by how much you decide to spend. To some extent, property taxes are the same way. You don't have to buy property (or that more expensive property) to pay them. Having just moved from a property tax oriented state to a state with an income tax, I can tell you which I prefer!

All food? Do we want fast food that is already cheaper to eat than grocery food to make/eat to get another advantage?

So, already, with basic things that are required to survive, we need some kind of deductions.... what about some kind of basic transportation? Do we tax all versions of consumed health care?

How many loopholes do you need to show that this is no better than income tax?

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to aussiesmg: Saying we did chop the waste like crazy. Say we cut federal spending by 20%. What effect do you think that would have on the short term economy. I am not sure if you guys are saying that it would sink the economy in the short term, but it would be worth it in the long term, or alternatively, if you are saying that such cuts wouldn't cause a major drop in the short term economy?

Economies are funny things. They fix themselves.

Our economy should not be 100% reliant upon government spending anyways.

tuna55 wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

madmallard wrote: i'm sorry, alfa. I think i missed something. Could you fire off a few ways to avoid consumption tax that wouldn't work under other taxations types?

Since most taxes are income, I would already have it, so that's pretty easy to get around. And there are places that do not have much in ways of consuption taxes. Or are you so naive to think that there would not be tax haves created out of ideas like this? Remember prohibition- Ontario also outlawed drinking, but Canadian Club was made in Windsor, fully legally, and smuggled into the US. It's not as if there are not tax havens already in the Caribbean for companies- so lets not fool ourselves there.

You have not answered the question, Eric. How is the 9-9-9 plan unable to capture taxes which we are able to accurate capture today?

?? So saving $5M, and taking is someplace else does not address that? Really? That's kind of silly.

I'm not entirely convinced the 9-9-9 plan is the best idea either - I'd personally favor a flat tax rate with a large personal deduction, such as "Pay 25% on every dollar you make above $20,000." But I'd like to see a tax code that has no loopholes whatsoever and fits on a single sheet of paper. Since any plan is likely to have compromises to it by the time it's actually passed, I'd say it is a better starting point than "We keep the system the way it is."

Speaking of getting things actually passed, while I do have some concerns about a guy who's never been in Washington being elected President who doesn't know how things get done, at present it appears that the only way things get done is if you have a very large majority of your party in Congress anyway. Washington's culture seems a bit dysfunctional, to put it mildly. And each time we've had a new President recently, we've seen him talk about being bipartisan and cooperating, only to have that survive maybe two months.

I'd say as anything other than a protest candidate, Herman Cain is a gamble - the trouble is, most of the other Republican candidates sound like a vote for Business As Usual.