z31maniac wrote: Make it legal (and deny much of the funding to the cartels and other criminal elements), tax it, regulate it, and spend money on education, prevention, and rehabilitation.
I agree, and so do several others in this thread. Not sure why you're so defensive about this. 
Tom_Spangler wrote:z31maniac wrote: Make it legal (and deny much of the funding to the cartels and other criminal elements), tax it, regulate it, and spend money on education, prevention, and rehabilitation.I agree, and so do several others in this thread. Not sure why you're so defensive about this.
That, and some element of prevention. Not sure how, as I don't know how people start. Pete has pointed out the coping issue with drugs. Others have suggested prescription opioids.
It's one thing to be legal. But even if it's legal, we will still have a big segment of society exactly where they are now, as there's little to prevent the addiction from starting. And it's really obvious that this addiction is incredibly powerful.
Listening to who is doing it- these people are not evil, not bad, not even horrible. Just got into a situation that is incredibly hard to recover from. Even with help. Although, the recovery resources are stretched incredibly thin, too- so there's another problem.
^Exactly.
Tom_Spangler wrote:z31maniac wrote: Make it legal (and deny much of the funding to the cartels and other criminal elements), tax it, regulate it, and spend money on education, prevention, and rehabilitation.I agree, and so do several others in this thread. Not sure why you're so defensive about this.
Rough day at work, bad mood. All on me for coming off so harshly once I went back and re-read it. My sincere apologies.
Im a bit late to the party here (poor choice of words considering the topic? Perhaps)
In Australia, we've also seen a resurgence of heroin use and overdoses. Some of it comes down to increased Middle eastern opium production, some of it comes down to oxycontin being modified to make it uninjectable which has seen users cutting up fentanyl patches and trying to extract it, and some of it comes down to the cyclic popularity of drugs
Obviously addiction is a complex issue, and there will never be a blanket answer as to why people become addicts, nor how best to deal with it. However, Law enforcement at the user level is definately not the answer, be it heroin, meth, alcohol or any other substance of addiction.
That said Kings Cross in Sydney has Australia's only legal safe injection facility, its modeled on European sif's and has been highly effective at reducing overdoses, reducing needles in the streets, reducing the spread of blood borne diseases and even helping people seek treatment to break the cycle of addiction. In the 15 years of operation they have treated close to 5000 overdoses without a single fatality. While 1 room won't solve the problem, its a good snapshot of how treating heroin as a health issue saves lives and helps protect the broader community.
Both the Portugal and Netherlands are having success with their approach to opiate addiction and its a model id like to see Australia look at closer. We currently have a methadone program here, which works to an extent, but doesn't have the supporting services to make it as effective a tool as it could be.
Opiates have been around for a long time and aren't going to magically disappear, neither will human's desire to get high. If its not heroin, its meth, if it's not meth its some new unknown quantity research drug, there's always going to be a drug that appeals to peoples desires and they will continue to take the risk of using that drug. Its why prohibition didn't work, it's why people still shoot heroin knowing they could get addicted, arrested or even end up dead.
In reply to Cousin_Eddie: And this is my point. Some people are just bound and determined to keep it up, not caring who they hurt. How much does each "save" cost the taxpayers?
A good tin foil hat theory is that the government is the party responsible for the fentanyl lacing that's the newest problem. Let the junkies die and there is less burden on those who don't shoot up.
KyAllroad wrote: In reply to Cousin_Eddie: And this is my point. Some people are just bound and determined to keep it up, not caring who they hurt. How much does each "save" cost the taxpayers?
Is this the old "can't help everyone, why try to help some" attitude?
KyAllroad wrote: In reply to Cousin_Eddie: And this is my point. Some people are just bound and determined to keep it up, not caring who they hurt. How much does each "save" cost the taxpayers?
What does it cost a society to galvanize itself against it's weakest members? Shall we skip the whole pretense of caring? Put up a furnace for the mentally ill and old? The terminally ill? The impoverished? Those with different political views than our own?
The next world war can't have any real heroes if there isn't a strong villain role!
I don't know what it costs for a 911 heroin response. That phone call gets you an engine with four paramedics and an ambulance with two paramedics as well as two police officers.
I'm a long way down the road in my career and the bitterness and burnout are ever lurking if I let it into my head. The street EMS personnel like myself and my crews don't deal with the money end of it. That happens in an office down in city hall. I'm sure I could open my computer and poke around in old run sheets and see what they wound up costing, but I haven't ever done that and don't ever plan on it in the future.
If I knew what it cost the taxpayers it would certainly make me hateful. If you let the bitterness in your head it taints future interactions with people. If you get pissed off because of the cost, next time you see that patient, it could be a short road to not caring. And if I ever quit caring it will leave a mark inside of me. I can't ever look back on a call or a patient and not know that I did my level best to serve them properly. Anything outside of that and you're playing God. That's when maybe the IV doesn't get started quickly or the meds aren't administered promptly, or the ventilations given with proper diligence. And that's when you lay awake at night wondering if the outcome would have been different if you had brought your "A" game and not your "this scumbag is screwing the taxpayers" game. So, I don't want to know what it cost.
never mind...
In response to KyAllroad's deleted post....
The thing about heroin is that it sneaks up on the user.
Virtually no user ever starts off injecting it. They snort it. Because injection is scary and only down-and-out junkies shoot dope. So, they snort a little here and there. Eventually the allure of getting the full experience of the substance via the injection route wins out and they take up the needle.
Same thing for meth. Most users start out swallowing it or snorting it before they eventually go for the gusto of smoking it.
In both cases, it's like an invisible line in the sand. The line where the user goes from casual to full-on. When it goes from a fun weekend special occasion deal to a central component of their life...
Thanks Cousin Eddie, you're right and I apologize for coming off like an ass. The whole subject bothers me pretty badly and I go to a bad place when that happens.
I owe you a beer sir!
KyAllroad wrote: Thanks Cousin Eddie, you're right and I apologize for coming off like an ass. The whole subject bothers me pretty badly and I go to a bad place when that happens. I owe you a beer sir!
As it does all of us- some, the impact is harder than others. You have your reasons for it to be that hard to deal with. We are all only human.
Who markets and prescribes something so dangerously addictive for ordinary post-op pain? Who profits from people who are addicted to a product? Who does not provide aftercare to wean patients off of it before they leave care?
a profit-driven "healthcare" industry?
Compare the cost of rehabbing someone and helping them become a productive member of society again, thus contributing to the tax base vs locking them up.
but that cuts into the bottom line of our ever growing for profit prison system.
Compare the cost of housing a prisoner to what we spend on our students.
an educated populace is not in the best interest of those(and their lobbyists) who reap the benefits of a dumb, divided & ill society.
impulsive wrote:Who markets and prescribes something so dangerously addictive for ordinary post-op pain? Who profits from people who are addicted to a product? Who does not provide aftercare to wean patients off of it before they leave care?a profit-driven "healthcare" industry?Compare the cost of rehabbing someone and helping them become a productive member of society again, thus contributing to the tax base vs locking them up.but that cuts into the bottom line of our ever growing for profit prison system.Compare the cost of housing a prisoner to what we spend on our students.an educated populace is not in the best interest of those(and their lobbyists) who reap the benefits of a dumb, divided & ill society.
That's pretty much everything I've wanted to say about this whole debacle. Nothing changes until everything changes, so to speak.
Yeah it's a comedy show, but pertinent all the same.
I'm afraid I ran out of time to read the whole thread, but just an anecdote from my life: I'm an assistant prosecutor in Ohio. One of the things we get in our packets from police are these sheets that have all of the suspect/defendant's BMV or other state government photos, sometimes going back to when they were 16 and got their first license. Usually these are pretty boring, people get older, chubbier, more wrinkly gradually over decades. With heroin users--of all ages--there is frequently a sharp break at some point. John Q. Heroin User is a guy who looked totally respectable, normal, and healthy; then at 43 he suddenly aged 20 years and looks like he's about to die in a gutter.
If you believe these guys, especially the 30-60 year olds, just about every one started with a prescription from a doctor.
In reply to ShadowSix:
Pretty much the same thing with meth, except getting it from the Dr.
spitfirebill wrote: In reply to ShadowSix: Pretty much the same thing with meth, except getting it from the Dr.
Yeah, I had the good fortune to miss the meth craze when it swept through here 10-15 years back.
In reply to ShadowSix:
I moticed the same thing about the deterioration of suspects. When I go into an interrogation I always have full local and NCIC history along with id's and family associations. Nearly evertime I can pin a breakpoint in the suspect's life.
Law enforcement is the worst possible way to deal with addiction and social issues. But until we( as a population in general) can treat mental health, poverty, and Addiction issues up front we will continue to treat these issues on the back end with arrest and incarceration. And as long as we keep doing the same thing we will keep getting the same thing.
dropstep wrote: We went from the meth epidemic too heroin in this small town. Alot of people i went too highschool with have overdosed.
From what I have seen (docs etc.), this is a sad improvement for the rest of society.
Heroin addiction is scary and mostly sad. Meth is a terrifying.
^No doubt.
I messed with just about everything else in high school and college. But those two I was always way too terrified of to even try.
I cannot figure out how anybody can be talked into "trying meth".
All bets are off if a 2nd opinion says I'm checking out soon anyway ... but until then I think I'm cool with keeping my addictions food, water, air and adrenaline.
ShadowSix wrote: I'm afraid I ran out of time to read the whole thread, but just an anecdote from my life: I'm an assistant prosecutor in Ohio. One of the things we get in our packets from police are these sheets that have all of the suspect/defendant's BMV or other state government photos, sometimes going back to when they were 16 and got their first license. Usually these are pretty boring, people get older, chubbier, more wrinkly gradually over decades. With heroin users--of all ages--there is frequently a sharp break at some point. John Q. Heroin User is a guy who looked totally respectable, normal, and healthy; then at 43 he suddenly aged 20 years and looks like he's about to die in a gutter. If you believe these guys, especially the 30-60 year olds, just about every one started with a prescription from a doctor.
I've got the same job in Michigan. I've seen largely the same thing, except now it's not all 30+ year olds. I'm seeing 20 somethings that started out with a sports related injury and resulting surgery -> opiates -> heroin.
On a personal note, a friend lost her son at around 20 y.o. to that formula. I don't remember what the initial injury was, but he got hooked on prescription meds, then transitioned to heroin because prescriptions meds often aren't available locally at any price as a "street drug". (Heroin, on the other hand, is both plentiful and cheap) She dragged him into rehab, got him cleaned up and doing pretty well. He had an injury (fell off a dirt bike IIRC), got opiates in the hospital (despite her BEGGING doctors not to give him anything), relapsed and was dead a few weeks later.
I'm all for helping users. Dealers, on the other hand, should be wondering what decade they will get out of prison, just like it was back in the crack "epidemic". I have no use for someone who can look at this kind of misery and think "I could make a buck off from that."
I'll not for a second doubt anyone that gets addicted via even completely properly prescribed opioids.
As at least some of you know, earlier this year while pushing a stalled car one a test drive I snapped one of my Achilles' tendons, necessitating surgery to repair it. Unsurprisingly, the doctor prescribed an opioid for the pain following the surgery (the irony to me being that, by and large, I wasn't in much of any pain before the surgery- but letting it heal without the surgery risked losing some usage and a higher chance of it snapping again).
I had the surgery midday Thursday, and as part of the surgery they did a nerve block on my lower leg that kept me from feeling ANYTHING blow my knee for almost 24 hours. When it wore off though, I needed the full prescribed dose for the next day and a half or so to keep the pain at a manageable level. I found that I could drop the dose down progressively over the next few days until that Monday I found I was able to handle the pain with a non-opioid (Ibuprofen) and I stopped taking the opioid completely.
That night was easily one of the worst nights of my life. Hot and then cold and back again while completely drained and exhausted but also utterly unable to fall asleep- on top of the 'fun' digestive issues that the opioid caused. It took an unbelievable amount of willpower to not give in to the 'easy' way out to take another of the pills and at least alleviate the withdrawal symptoms. The three days it took to get through the withdrawal were hell- but well worth it to not be the zombie that I pretty much was while on the pain meds. For someone with a bit less willpower, without a spouse to encourage and support them or a good support system in general, it's easy to see how someone could not be able to get past the withdrawal. It would obviously be even worse if they actually enjoyed the feeling of being on the meds- thankfully I hated the feeling of being on the pain pills, and my wife hated how far from my usual self I was when on them as well.
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