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QuasiMofo (John Brown)
QuasiMofo (John Brown) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/21/22 2:52 p.m.

In reply to Advan046 :

I hope that this thread dies only on the day that this war ends. Not before. The reality is that Russias war in Ukraine is not as simple as a military exercise, it has also become a motion of force in the ether. This war has demonstrated that there is moral loss that can be dealt and actually fiscally paid for because of the internet. This war is both REAL and ON LINE and that information has taken the Russians by surprise. There was no way to realize the sharp knee jerk reaction compared to the passive acceptance just a few short years ago in Crimea and Georgia. 

No. Russia will eventually topple because of this. The question is will China allow the state to appear to be Russian or will it absorb that area as a new region? 

02Pilot
02Pilot PowerDork
12/21/22 2:53 p.m.
aircooled said:

I will say, as is pretty obvious to most, the general failure of the Russian military "might" is likely the biggest surprise.   The corruption on multiple levels, moral, operational and material have all combined to make the Russian military a shadow of what it pretended to be (be careful about believing marketing).  In retrospect, and learning more about how the Russian military in general works, it not a huge surprise, but a year ago, the marketing worked.

The effective destruction of what was generally considered the most elite unit of the Russian military, the airborne forces, or VDV, at Hostomel airport outside Kyiv I think was a prime example of this.  Arrogance and over confidence seemed to rule the day in the Russian military.

That's what happens when you use the same marketing team for domestic and foreign consumption. Russian soldiers have been told they're hot E36 M3, and without a recent conflict to disabuse them of that notion, they believed the hype.

I have many of the same thoughts on the military side, so I don't feel the need to repeat what's been said. Diplomatically, if someone had said a year ago that NATO would be more unified than ever (arguably), and that Sweden and Finland would be trying to join as fast as possible, I would have probably snorted derisively. But I also think that it's still very short-term, and there's nothing to guarantee this level of unity will persist; in fact, I think the cracks are already forming. That the US is shouldering the majority of the financial burden is absolutely nothing new (this goes back to 1949), and in spite of pledges to increase European defense budgets, I expect there will be backpedaling in a number of instances.

Right now the war is still in the first phase: both sides are rejecting talks under any sort of workable terms, and both are still committed to winning. Only when the costs get too high for one or both will that change, and I don't think it's especially close. When it does happen, it's likely to take the form of Western pressure on Ukraine to reduce the scope of its aims due to the cost (I've detailed this argument here before), or Russia seeking talks directly with the US and/or EU, in an effort to minimize Ukraine's voice in the final settlement and exploit divisions in the Western camp.

If there's an overarching lesson here, it's one that's been taught and forgotten a thousand times. Clausewitz put it succinctly: "War is policy by other means." Even though we're talking about military factors a lot, it's easy to forget that they are being carried out in service to policy objectives. Getting bogged down in the military details makes it easy to lose sight of the bigger picture, which becomes a very real problem when it occurs among decision-makers in the corridors of power.

eastsideTim
eastsideTim UltimaDork
12/21/22 2:59 p.m.
QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

In reply to Advan046 :

No. Russia will eventually topple because of this. The question is will China allow the state to appear to be Russian or will it absorb that area as a new region? 

If this happens, I'd assume China would want Russia intact as a larger version of North Korea.  Something to distract their opponents while they try to achieve their objectives.  I'm not sure they could succeed in keeping the Russian Federation from breaking up, though.

Advan046
Advan046 UberDork
12/22/22 1:36 a.m.

In reply to QuasiMofo (John Brown) :

That is what I meant by my words, that the war ends soon. 

I fear that many apply our or European concepts of national pride to others. The Russians I have hung out with still hold a strong national pride despite hating on Putin they root for him. Many Russians feel the west abandoned them and tricked them into an oligarchy. Not saying I agree but this is what they commonly said to me. Odd given one friend left Russia like a year before the wall fell and others left in the early 2000s. So it is a very strong "us against the world" mentality that was expressed to me prior to this war that makes me worry that Russians will ride or die literally on this war. 

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltimaDork
12/22/22 8:58 a.m.

Apologize if this was covered previously, I scanned back a couple of pages and didn't see it, and I haven't been following this voluminous thread in it's entirety, except when I hear news elsewhere- then I come here for more expert insight. wink

It sounds like the US will be sending Ukraine Patriot missiles. From what I hear, these require extensive training- basically, US boots on the ground to help the Ukrainians use them. If US personnel are in Ukraine, and maybe not pulling the actual trigger, but telling the Ukrainian soldiers exactly how to make the missiles blow up Russian targets...how close is too close for Russia to consider the US "actively involved" in the war?

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/22/22 9:29 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

how close is too close for Russia to consider the US "actively involved" in the war?

Zelensky addressed Congress yesterday. I'd say that ship has sailed.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
12/22/22 10:05 a.m.
QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

In reply to Advan046 :

I hope that this thread dies only on the day that this war ends. Not before. The reality is that Russias war in Ukraine is not as simple as a military exercise, it has also become a motion of force in the ether. This war has demonstrated that there is moral loss that can be dealt and actually fiscally paid for because of the internet. This war is both REAL and ON LINE and that information has taken the Russians by surprise. There was no way to realize the sharp knee jerk reaction compared to the passive acceptance just a few short years ago in Crimea and Georgia. 

No. Russia will eventually topple because of this. The question is will China allow the state to appear to be Russian or will it absorb that area as a new region? 

Hear hear!

02Pilot
02Pilot PowerDork
12/22/22 10:05 a.m.

The Patriots won't be in-country for months. Training will probably be in Poland or Germany. The US is not putting troops (other than a few SOF teams and intel people) in, and not anywhere near the front lines. "Actively involved" generally means fighting, and the US isn't going to do that.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltimaDork
12/22/22 10:32 a.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
volvoclearinghouse said:

how close is too close for Russia to consider the US "actively involved" in the war?

Zelensky addressed Congress yesterday. I'd say that ship has sailed.

That's what brought it to my attention.

Looking as though 2023 will be like 1942 all over again.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltimaDork
12/22/22 10:34 a.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

I hope you're right.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/22/22 1:14 p.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Dude,  we'd better all hope that isn't the case. 

VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
12/22/22 2:06 p.m.

What happened in 1942?

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
12/22/22 2:44 p.m.

I think he is referring to the point (December 41 really of course) when the US was finally pulled into WWII after dipping it's toe into it for a few years, trying to keep a distance yet helping who they wanted to win.

trigun7469
trigun7469 UltraDork
12/22/22 3:35 p.m.

U.S. Security Cooperation with Ukraine interesting fact sheet about how the US is involved. I would think that the modernization of US weapons and intelligent wouldn't allow a sneak attack. However Putin's rational for the Ukraine war is mind boggling, you have to wonder how many years he wants to commit before pulling out.

johndej
johndej SuperDork
12/22/22 3:40 p.m.

I've seen a few headlines stating that Putin has referred to Zelensky's visit to DC as a "fatal mistake" for him. Wonder if the direct assassination route is going to be more aggressive. 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/22/22 4:11 p.m.
johndej said:

I've seen a few headlines stating that Putin has referred to Zelensky's visit to DC as a "fatal mistake" for him. Wonder if the direct assassination route is going to be more aggressive. 

It's hard to take any of his tough-guy talk seriously at this point, given how poorly the war has gone for him.

At this point, I think Putin is willing to throw conscripts into the meat grinder indefinetely, with the hope that the West will eventually tire of spending money to support Ukraine. As long as he and his acolytes maintain total control of Russia, he might just be able to do it. If this war goes on for 5 more years, sooner or later the political will to support Ukraine will erode. It's a tried-and-true method for autocrats fighting democracies.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/22/22 4:18 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
johndej said:

I've seen a few headlines stating that Putin has referred to Zelensky's visit to DC as a "fatal mistake" for him. Wonder if the direct assassination route is going to be more aggressive. 

It's hard to take any of his tough-guy talk seriously at this point, given how poorly the war has gone for him.

Indeed, I read it in the Grand Nagus's voice.

 

...erm. Hmm.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltimaDork
12/22/22 4:47 p.m.

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

I don't think the US will stop supporting Ukraine if this drags on for 5 years. We did twice that long involved in a hot war in Vietnam, with actual US soldiers dying, constant headlines, and protests. We were mired in Afghanistan for TWO DECADES before we finally got bored of that mess. Putin's soul will be ground up into Satan's dog food long before the US support for Ukraine stops. 

If anything, your average idiot here will simply forget about the whole fiasco, while the Congresscritters continue to ship rockets to the Ukrainians, all to the delight of the US military suppliers. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
12/22/22 6:59 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
johndej said:

I've seen a few headlines stating that Putin has referred to Zelensky's visit to DC as a "fatal mistake" for him. Wonder if the direct assassination route is going to be more aggressive. 

It's hard to take any of his tough-guy talk seriously at this point, given how poorly the war has gone for him.

At this point, I think Putin is willing to throw conscripts into the meat grinder indefinetely, with the hope that the West will eventually tire of spending money to support Ukraine. As long as he and his acolytes maintain total control of Russia, he might just be able to do it. If this war goes on for 5 more years, sooner or later the political will to support Ukraine will erode. It's a tried-and-true method for autocrats fighting democracies.

But Putin is down to 132 million population.  Chewing up 300,000  every 6 months or so will dramatically reduce that  population. Those dead solders/ damaged won't be fathering  any children.  Between those leaving the country to avoid the draft and the already  excess female population of 7-8 million more women then men.  
  Russia will be really hurting to begin to fill all that land. ( The largest  country on Earth) 

   At some point  the population will simply become too small to remain governed by one ? Government. 

Antihero
Antihero GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/22/22 7:10 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
johndej said:

I've seen a few headlines stating that Putin has referred to Zelensky's visit to DC as a "fatal mistake" for him. Wonder if the direct assassination route is going to be more aggressive. 

It's hard to take any of his tough-guy talk seriously at this point, given how poorly the war has gone for him.

Indeed, I read it in the Grand Nagus's voice.

 

...erm. Hmm.

Man......I gotta watch DS9 again......

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/22/22 8:06 p.m.

In reply to Antihero :

Oddly appropriate...

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE SuperDork
12/22/22 9:33 p.m.
z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/22/22 10:53 p.m.

In reply to Antihero :

What is DS9?

 

 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/22/22 11:02 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

 

Antihero
Antihero GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/22/22 11:13 p.m.
z31maniac said:

In reply to Antihero :

What is DS9?

 

 

Awesome, it's awesome 

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