I get annoyed...

... by people who think that Toyota is the only car brand. Especially uneducated people. I go to meet my girlfriends parents, and her dad says something about her car--a Toyota Corolla. I'm keeping my mouth shut. He asks me what I thought of it, and I told him what I honestly thought: It's a good car. He pry's a little more, and I reveal to him that I'm a car nut. So he asks again what I thought of the car, would I ever buy one, or something like that. I tell him the truth: its a good car, but I get bored with any car that is not RWD or Manual, and preferably both. He asks what new Toyota I would buy, and I say none with the possible exception of the Tacoma.
He asks what I think of the Camry, I counter with the Malibu-he counters with gas mileage, i counter with the same. The discussion never got heated, but I just got annoyed with it, it was like he didn't even go out and test drive any other car after he read Consumer Reports, and expected me as a car nut to agree with him and Consumer Reports.

Looks like Toyota has a good marketing dept.

Shawn

I just get annoyed with consumer reports. Actually I think "hate" is a better word. It could the fact that the general pubic thinks Consumer Reports is the end-all of sources for information about cars which leads to conversations like you mentioned. They basically doomed the Samurai and Trooper when they had their infamous roll-over reports. Even though they got sued for purposely screwing those vehicles, the legacy of those reports lives on. It does mean Troopers are a steal on the used car market but there is also little to no aftermarket for them due to the lack of interest of the American pubic.

Brand perception is just that. Starbucks, Apple, Toyota, Target... I kind of categorize them all together. They have great marketing, and consistent products. Right now, they are also in good favor with large amounts of people who are heard, especially by the middle class. Just wait a decade, and the brands on top will be completely different (just look at South Korea's tech and auto industry!).

I am Nostradamus, and thank you for listening.

On the other hand, whenever a non-car person asks me what they should get, I ask what their needs are....

Small car? Civic or Corolla

Medium car? Accord or Camry

Minivan? Oddity or Siena

SUV? Pilot or Highlander.

And that covers almost everybody and you'll never get a complaint back from them.

On the other hand, if a car person asks you what they should get, ask them first what they like and then just say, "uh huh. That's cool." because it's just about impossible to sway someone's opinion on something like this.

Of course, there are a lot of people right in the middle—and then it gets more difficult.

And there MTN is why GM is in such bad shape, and Toyota is doing so well. One company builds a car that everyone wants, the other builds a car no one knows about, or desires.

Agree with Per, except living outside Florida we can usually answer "Subaru" to most of the categories also.

The domestics don't build bad cars. I've had enough fleet vehicles to know they can get the job done. For most people, they would be fine. But, one huge difference is resale value. I sold my father on a Accord simply because the Taurus he wanted would be worth nothing by the time it was paid off.

Having driven Camrys and Corollas though, I would not choose one over a domestic product. They are flaccid and uninspiring. I think my loathed current Stratus may be more fun to drive than a Camry.

I think resale value is a big one. In the last year, I've been given a '96 Escort with 106k on it, and a '97 Taurus (not sure on the mileage). Both cars run, but with minor issues. With both cars, the owners decided that it wouldn't be worth the price to fix all the little issues, because after they paid to have that done they would probably loose money on selling them. I've never been given a 10-12 year old import. A 96-97 civic, corolla, camry, or accord is still going to bring a pretty good price, even with minor issues.

When we visited the in-laws over the holiday my g/f's parents were talking about getting an Apple notebook. They are not rich folks so the g/f brings up the idea that you can buy a windows laptop for $500 while an Apple will cost $1k. At that point it becomes a discussion about religion. They wanted an Apple even if it cost double. No amt of discussion would change that. Cost be damned.

I've found that cars can be the same way. Everyone has their religion. It may not make sense but it's what they believe. I just don't talk about it. If I do get roped in I'll state my thoughts and leave it at that. No reason to argue.

Course, on the board it's a bit different. We come here to share thoughts and debate ideas. It's expected. We're pretty professional about it. Most times it won't get personal. It's more like an Aikido match (spirited but controlled) than a knife fight (messy and potentially lethal).

And that's it in a nutshell, which is also at least partly driven by decades of Consumer Retar... I mean Consumer Reports reporting that every car Toyota and Honda ever made is automotive perfection and everything American made is horrible gasguzzling unreliable crap.

I became completely unable to believe a word of Consumer Reports when I read the New Car issue that included both the Honda Passport and the Isuzu Rodeo. The Honda was reviewed as "Very Reliable" and the interior was described as "Rugged". The Isuzu was labeled "Lower Middle" in the reliability category and the interior was described "Cheap and plasticy".

Discerning readers will remember that the vehicles were both made by Isuzu and were utterly identical except for the badging. The berkeleywad idiots didn't even notice and just went with the editorial party line.

Just because you don't take advertising dollars does NOT mean you offer unbiased reporting.

You guys have hit the nail on the head with resale... a 24k car that is worth $2995 in 5yrs costs 10k more than the car still worth 13k..... and that is still > 50% loss in 5yrs. It is madness (and a racket).

I always advise people who ask what they should buy to buy a reliable used car and put the difference away for upkeep or next years vacation if nothing breaks.

Xceler8x wrote: When we visited the in-laws over the holiday my g/f's parents were talking about getting an Apple notebook. They are not rich folks so the g/f brings up the idea that you can buy a windows laptop for $500 while an Apple will cost $1k. At that point it becomes a discussion about religion. They wanted an Apple even if it cost double. No amt of discussion would change that. Cost be damned.

Well, making the case for the Apple laptop... They tend to be very well-optioned, and are generally comparable or superior to similarly-priced windows laptops, and the overall cost of ownership tends to be lower, especially if your the type of user who has to take it into the shop when it gets riddled with viruses and crap. That said, a lot of people will be perfectly happy with a $500 windows machine, and they'll still have $500 in their pocket.

Consumer Reports is probably the most biased publication out there. The woman who was in charge of it back during the Samurai and Trooper rollover fiascos ran the thing her way, in her view they could never admit they might be wrong and that's where a lot of the problems came from. Suzuki and Isuzu both sued CR over statements in the articles and won, this chapped her butt bad and was the reason for the disparity in the Passport/Rodeo ratings.

For that reason, I pay -no- attention to CR.

DIRT BIKE Magazine did a shootout test of the 125 MXers back in, IIRC, 1993 and the then completely revamped YZ125 Yamaha was rated as 'marginal' in every category and at the end of the article they said they couldn't in good faith recommend that anyone buy it. Yamaha demanded an in print retraction, the DB editorial group said no they were standing by their reporting and Yamaha yanked their advertising for about 10 years. Now THAT is what I call unbiased reporting.

Anybody remember when Consumer Reports posted a automotive tester 'Help Wanted' on the old BB? They got savaged pretty badly

Tim Baxter wrote:

Xceler8x wrote: When we visited the in-laws over the holiday my g/f's parents were talking about getting an Apple notebook. They are not rich folks so the g/f brings up the idea that you can buy a windows laptop for $500 while an Apple will cost $1k. At that point it becomes a discussion about religion. They wanted an Apple even if it cost double. No amt of discussion would change that. Cost be damned.

Well, making the case for the Apple laptop... They tend to be very well-optioned, and are generally comparable or superior to similarly-priced windows laptops, and the overall cost of ownership tends to be lower, especially if your the type of user who has to take it into the shop when it gets riddled with viruses and crap. That said, a lot of people will be perfectly happy with a $500 windows machine, and they'll still have $500 in their pocket.

And if you buy an Apple refurb you save 20% off list and get essentially a new computer with full warranty and the latest version of the OS; the only difference is that the box it comes in is brown instead of white.

Jensenman wrote: Anybody remember when Consumer Reports posted a automotive tester 'Help Wanted' on the old BB? They got savaged pretty badly

Yeah, I was starting to think about that thread when their rag got mentioned. The speculation on what a version of Consumer Reports run by this message board would look like got rather amusing.

thanks for throwing a word in there for the American car companies PER.

When asked my opinion on buying a car, I don't offer any since they have already made up their mind and anything I say is ignored. Ref; my daughter and my daughter in law, trading their car before it is paid for.

brand perception is like a snowball rolling down hill. Trying to change the perceptions is hard. The US manufactuers screwed up a long time ago by discounting the threat of the import manufacturers, and now they are paying for it(whether their products actually are inferior or not).

http://www.motorauthority.com/toyota-and-honda-top-consumer-reports-perception-study.html

Duke wrote: And that's it in a nutshell, which is also at least partly driven by decades of Consumer Retar... I mean Consumer Reports reporting that every car Toyota and Honda ever made is automotive perfection and everything American made is horrible gasguzzling unreliable crap. I became completely unable to believe a word of Consumer Reports when I read the New Car issue that included both the Honda Passport and the Isuzu Rodeo. The Honda was reviewed as "Very Reliable" and the interior was described as "Rugged". The Isuzu was labeled "Lower Middle" in the reliability category and the interior was described "Cheap and plasticy". Discerning readers will remember that the vehicles were both made by Isuzu and were utterly identical except for the badging. The berkeleywad idiots didn't even notice and just went with the editorial party line. Just because you don't take advertising dollars does NOT mean you offer unbiased reporting.

I like to look through their "new car issue" because you get to see everything thats being offered at prices I can't afford.

I did notice the exact same thing; Toyota Matrix was described as zippy and fuel efficient but a few pages earlier the Pontiac Vibe was under powered and buzzy. Same car, same engine, same transmission, different scores.

Oh well.

And option the windows unit up to the level of included equipment of the Apple and you'll be surprised at how little the difference is.

Now factor in the aggrevation factor and time spend constantly looking out for viruses and all the extra software you need on the windows machine vs. the Apple and it will be WAY cheaper to buy the Apple

Sounds like (currently) Japanese cars are the best (value for the money) new cars, while domestic cars are the best used cars.

Until my older sister married a guy who THINKS he's a car guy, my family knew i was the "expert". But no one ever asked for advice and I came to be glad they didn't when they realized they had wasted their money.

Depending on how much you like to guy (or his daughter), some variation of my traditional solution in this case (aka a good car, but not the end-all):
"Yeah, the _ is a good 'inside the box' choice, but a smart shopper would have probably had a look at _ before making a choice."

For a lot more fun:
"If you were going to buy a car as uninspired and boring as a Toyota, why didn't you just go ahead (man up, bite the bullet, etc) and buy thier minivan?"

Do you guys just hate Toyotas because they're too good? Do you just want to be different like all of your friends? I'd frankly like to see an aftermarket in making cars like the Accord/Camry into BMW beaters. That, to me, is thinking outside the box.

Why waste the money when you could just buy a 335i?

I will shut up now.