I get annoyed...

Per Schroeder wrote: Do you guys just hate Toyotas because they're too good? Do you just want to be different like all of your friends? I'd frankly like to see an aftermarket in making cars like the Accord/Camry into BMW beaters. That, to me, is thinking outside the box.

Next month ya'll have a late-model Camry build article in the mag?

Toyota builds wheeled washing machines. That's ok, because that's all some people want really. The real problem is they're resting on their reputation of reliablity and it's going down hill. That's where the hate is coming from.

P.S: Tell Baxter the "make" sorting on the "New Car Reviews" isn't working very well. Not that it mattered in Toyota's case, the most recent car of their's you've got listed there is the MR-S.

No, but most have felt to me like they're decent tires, a good alignment (most have crash bolts for big negative camber) and a rear anti-rollbar away from being fun. The V6 Camry is a strong, strong car in a straight line...add a few suspension tweaks....

A late 90's v6 Camry could be an ultimate sleeper. No one would ever see it coming, literally. If they were any more generic, they'd be completely invisible.

Of course, when you did beat someone, they wouldn't know it because they wouldn't see you. And wouldn't remember what had passed them, even if they had seen you.

Although it would be a perfect getaway car. All you'd have to do is merge two lanes over and the cops wouldn't be able to pick your car out of a lineup of 2. "Well it was a... car... yeah... kinda average sized."

Per Schroeder wrote: Do you guys just hate Toyotas because they're too good?

No, I don't have an issue with that. I don't hate them. What I hate is the attitude that they are the only cars on the planet a reasonable, intelligent shopper would buy.

I understand where you're coming from.

However, I get asked so often about "What kind of car should I buy" at every holiday with my in-laws and their huge extended network of friends because I work here at GRM. It happens so often that Kim helps me with my mantra. "Stick with the big three..." "GM, Ford or Dodge?" "No, Toyota, Honda or Nissan."

On the other hand, I only own one of those now. I've got a Saab, Dodge and MINI to go along with my Xterra.

If anyone complains that I'm pitching non-American firms, I point out that they are mostly made here, by U.S. workers.

Oh, and additional edit: If you're asking some shmuck (me) at a Xmas party what kind of car you should buy because you heard he worked at a car magazine...you're not a reasonable or intelligent car buyer. They don't even get the "the answer is always Miata." joke

Per Schroeder wrote: No, but most have felt to me like they're decent tires, a good alignment (most have crash bolts for big negative camber) and a rear anti-rollbar away from being fun. The V6 Camry is a strong, strong car in a straight line...add a few suspension tweaks....

I defer to your experience, but having driven the V6 Camry (the SE, I think), Altima 3.5L, and the Accord (well, the Coupe), and the Camry wasn't any of the car the others were. I dunno, to buy a Camry just because it's a Toyota and it's got that nice Toyota name is pretty rediculous.

I dunno, to buy a (...) just because it's a (...) and it's got that nice (...) name is pretty rediculous.

I hate Toyotas because they are (currently) under-engineered boxes that have all of the inspiration of a 70's beige washing machine. Having to perform any kind of maintenance work on a Toyota is so agonizing that I now refuse to work on them. Then I have to suffer through their ungodly loud commercials every damn time I turn on the boob tube and to top it all off is the ridiculous Tundra commercials that compare old Tundra parts vs. new ones and make it sound like domestic trucks are worthless. I just get so sick of the "holier then thou" attitude from their marketing and then I'm faced with waves of family/friends jabbering off of CR's spoon-fed BS and then every time one of the POS's breaks I'm the one that has to fix it.

I'm P71, and I hate Toyota.

Osterkraut wrote: Toyota builds wheeled washing machines. That's ok, because that's all some people want really. The real problem is they're resting on their reputation of reliablity and it's going down hill. That's where the hate is coming from.

One correction: 75% of the women out there want reliability above all (a wheeled washing machine, in other words) and they drive the majority of new car purchases. So that's where the 'appliance vehicles' (Camry, Accord etc) come from. For instance, the wife's Accord is about as boring as any car could possibly be from a performance standpoint, but that's what she and I are looking for in that car: reliability, not drama. Turn the key, it starts. Hit the A/C button, it gets cold. Good gas mileage. Comfortable on a trip. No muss, no fuss. Blazing acceleration and 1.2G skidpad numbers don't enter into it.

Toyota has had their problems to be sure, but it's nothing like the Big 3 have had. Unlike GM et al, they have also taken big steps to correct them (like the way they handled the Tacoma frame rust issue) and that's keeping their perceptions high in the minds of the American consumer. I mean, can you imagine GM stepping up to the plate if frames were rusting through prematurely on S10's? Hell, no.

Well that's because S10 frames were designed correctly to start with!

poopshovel wrote:

I dunno, to buy a (...) just because it's a (...) and it's got that nice (...) name is pretty rediculous.

P71 wrote: Well that's because S10 frames were designed correctly to start with!

Kinda like in 2000-2004 or so, when the '99 up VWs had window regulator problems, '99 up Grand Am and Alero had similar window regulator issues. VW issued a goodwill free replacement, regardless of age or mileage. GM acted like there was no problem. Whenever someone with a VW called me for the part, I'd tell them that the dealer will fix it for free. When someone with a grand am or alero would call for the part, I'd sell them a used one for $100. I bet the calls were 20 to 1, GM to VW.

Duke wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: Do you guys just hate Toyotas because they're too good?

No, I don't have an issue with that. I don't hate them. What I hate is the attitude that they are the only cars on the planet a reasonable, intelligent shopper would buy.

Exactly. Her dad looked at me like I was an idiot when I mentioned that the two most reliable cars we currently own are 18 and 13 years old, or when the most reliable car we've owned in the past 5 years was one of the only two American cars we've owned (out of three Japanese, two Swedish, and three German).

Dude, you're dating his daughter. Of course he thinks you're an idiot! My father in-law still thinks I'm an idiot—probably will forever. It's just part of the job.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=the+toyota+way&x=0&y=0

All peons at all automotive companies use toyota derived production, quality and/or product development strategies. It's a fact.

So hate toyota all you want but the car you drive(from any manufacturer) would be of significantly lower quality if it were not for them.

When the U.S. kicked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming to japan and stopped using his ideas after WWII..... That's when GM and Ford etc lost this argument. Full stop.

mazda is my favorite car company at the moment even though volkswagen has the best commercials mazdas are a close secound. anytime a car company markets on their involvement in racing I get excited. I am sure toyotas have good performance potential but they are marketed as boring washing machines on wheels haell for that matter other than supra, mr2, Ae86, they have always been this type of car company. I do in fact own a toyota pick up that s the best appliance I have ever ownd I love that truck but it is not to exciting. Of course yeas ago I took a friend to road atlanta for the ARRC and he was like this is kinda cool but what are they racing compacts. I was like because they are awesome; He was like whatever. He did become the biggest nascar fan ever because of this weekend and he drives a camry..... :D

ignorant wrote: So hate toyota all you want but the car you drive(from any manufacturer) would be of significantly lower quality if it were not for them. When the U.S. kicked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming to japan and stopped using his ideas after WWII..... That's when GM and Ford etc lost this argument. Full stop.

I don't hate Toyota. In fact, I applaud them (and Honda and Nissan) for making cars on a whole more reliable, better built, etc. I just get annoyed with the fact that people don't realize that the others have caught up, or are close to catching up, or that Toyota quality is falling (at least a little bit).

I think Toyota makes a very good car. Its just an appliance, and it is not the end-all be-all that so many (at least its seems so many) make it out to be.

P71 wrote: Well that's because S10 frames were designed correctly to start with!

Along with their intake gaskets, Vortec fuel injectors, fuel pumps, full size truck intermediate steering shafts, valve stem seals, Trail Blazer taillight circuit boards, etc etc etc none of which they offered to fix after the base warranty expired.

Or 99-up Grand Cherokee power window regulators. Gawd. I have people who have had to replace as many as 6 and no offer of help from Chrysler. Maybe the Grand Cherokee and Liberty taillights which, similar to the Trail Blazer, warp from brake light bulb heat. No help after 3/36. Or the later (05-up) 3.5 rocker arm shaft alignment pin that shears, allowing the shaft to turn and thus block off the oil feed holes to the HLAs making them clatter. 3/36 or 7/70 only, you are SOL otherwise.

Need any more instances of GM and Chrysler not stepping up to the plate unless forced?

mtn wrote: I don't hate Toyota. In fact, I applaud them (and Honda and Nissan) for making cars on a whole more reliable, better built, etc. I just get annoyed with the fact that people don't realize that the others have caught up, or are close to catching up, or that Toyota quality is falling (at least a little bit). I think Toyota makes a very good car. Its just an appliance, and it is not the end-all be-all that so many (at least its seems so many) make it out to be.

to win back customers you cannot just "meet" the quality of others. Equaling toyota in performance(quality wise) will not swing around consumer buying preferences. You are going to have to exceed them by a large margin for many years, just like toyota and Honda did to the domestics.

ignorant wrote:

mtn wrote: I don't hate Toyota. In fact, I applaud them (and Honda and Nissan) for making cars on a whole more reliable, better built, etc. I just get annoyed with the fact that people don't realize that the others have caught up, or are close to catching up, or that Toyota quality is falling (at least a little bit). I think Toyota makes a very good car. Its just an appliance, and it is not the end-all be-all that so many (at least its seems so many) make it out to be.

to win back customers you cannot just "meet" the quality of others. Equaling toyota in performance(quality wise) will not swing around consumer buying preferences. You are going to have to exceed them by a large margin for many years, just like toyota and Honda did to the domestics.

^ What he said!

Per Schroeder wrote: Dude, you're dating his daughter. Of course he thinks you're an idiot! My father in-law still thinks I'm an idiot—probably will forever. It's just part of the job.

In his defense, you did name his grandson Stig. :)

Per Schroeder wrote: Dude, you're dating his daughter. Of course he thinks you're an idiot! My father in-law still thinks I'm an idiot—probably will forever. It's just part of the job.

Mine does too in fact I everytime I go to his house I do something like flood the bathroom or get stuck in his yard to validate that... :D