I hate mices to pieces

mad_machine wrote: having once gotten stuck to a glue trap, I can understand why mice can mutilate themselves to get free.. that glue is HARD to get off..try it sometime (on a clean new trap)

Yeah, it's pretty much industrial strength super glue. You know, the kind you use to stick wood and ceramic together. Mice are very delicate animals, and their skin is much, much thinner than ours. I have seen what happens to mice after they're on for long periods of time:

Link1 Link2 Link3

"A scientific review of rodent control methods concluded that glue traps are one of the most inhumane methods of rodent control “because of the enormous distress these traps cause, even if the trapped animals are found after just a few hours and then humanely dispatched ... rodents are likely to experience pain and distress through being trapped, the physical effects of the adhesive on functioning (e.g. suffocation), and trauma resulting from panic and attempts to escape, such as forceful hair removal, torn skin and broken limbs. After three-five hours, animals have been reported as covered in their own faeces and urine. When boards are collected, animals are also often squealing; one pest control operative even described them as "screaming their heads off". Some rodents also bit through their own limbs to escape.”

This is particularly why I am angry about the notion of just chucking them into the rubbish while they are still alive. This sort of stuff is what happens to the animals on them. It is quite sick, and I'm very surprised someone would use "but nature's cruel too" to justify this rubbish. And as bad as this may sound, burning them alive would probably be a better way to go (I'd never, ever advocate something like this though). Which is why I'm curious to see which sort of "methods" Jensenman said are worse than this.

We have been fighting a longstanding war with the rats at my place. At one time we had 3 cats and as a result we never had any problems at all, even after the last of them died (old age) we didn't have issues. Then all of the sudden we were swimming in the dammed things(both mice and rats).

I killed the first one with a slingshot after the dog treed it. I prefer the plastic "jaws" style snap traps since they don't seem to want to take a whack at my hand every dammed time I set them down. I use the glue traps in area's I don't want to have soiled with blood and gore. I don't like the glue traps much and I will always whack a struggling mouse with a shovel.

I am also not really a fan of poison we have a lot of owls in the area and I don't want to kill them off as they are natural predators of the rats (besides its pretty cool to hear the hooting at night).

The traps were never really effective enough, so we broke down and got two cats. Almost immediately the local rat population seemed to decline.

While I don't agree with glue traps at all, at least you put them out of their misery, which I commend. Kudos to you - you're using them, but at least you're not intentionally making them suffer.

I don't like glue traps. I've found birds stuck to them, and rats not bothering with them. I did catch a whole litter of baby rats once in a cake pan that lanolin had spilled into. I won't use a poison with all the dogs and cats we have.

I built a bucket trap. Living in the woods, we have mice. I keep a spring trap in the bottom drawer in the kitchen, where they always seem to want to build a nest, for whatever reason. I wanted to kill them before they got in the house so I built a 5 gal bucket trap, filled it with 50% cheap-o antifreeze (so it wouldn't freeze) and stuck it under the house. Took one out of there last weekend. I don't think I've had a mouse inside since. They get under the house, go for the PB, drown in the antifreeze, which also preserves them so they don't stink it up. You just can't leave it around where cats, dogs, etc. can get to it, but under the house is closed off so that's not a problem. I just made another bucket trap for my shed, but I just put water in that one.

HenryC wrote: Which is why I'm curious to see which sort of "methods" Jensenman said are worse than this.

I suppose you missed the earlier post (not mine) where someone shot a mouse with a pellet gun? and then chased it around with an air blow gun. That's one rather disgusting version.

On poisoning them: read up about what that does sometime. http://www.buzzle.com/articles/rat-poison-side-effects.html That's what it does to humans, I imagine the poor little mousie feels much the same.

The worst thing about poisoning them without using a trap is that since they don't die right away, they can wind up outside where a larger predator such as the aforementioned owls could catch and eat them, ingesting the poison along with what might be their last dinner.

I also have a large population of those little color changing garden lizards and salamanders (those are really cool, they are the black ones with the electric blue stripes down the side) living around the house outside and I don't want them getting poisoned. They get into my shop all the time, other than salamander E36 M3 I don't see any ill effects so I leave them alone. I'm thinking that snap traps on the floor might have unintended consequences.

The point I keep trying to make (and that you continue to ignore) is that at the end of the day there is no truly humane way of 'disposing' of a mouse in a trap. They will suffer in some way. smack 'em on the head, poison, drowning, starving, there is no truly humane method (except for possibly the ether method). But you have singled me out as an inhumane jerk because I didn't use one of your approved methods.

I may have come across as taking joy in watching them die, not so. I'm just glad I haven't had to remove the seats from the Jensen to get dead mice out of the carpet again (and no that wasn't a glue trap, seems to have been natural causes). It took about a quart of Febreze to get the smell out of the carpet. I'm glad I didn't have to rewire it, the little buggers never got behind the dash.

Oh, and by the way after the last mouse incident I did get some of those ultrasonic repellers. They seem to have worked.

Jensenman wrote: I suppose you missed the earlier post (not mine) where someone shot a mouse with a pellet gun? and then chased it around with an air blow gun. That's one rather disgusting version.

That is rather bad (unless it were an act of mercy, a pellet gun may be appropriate), but not worse than leaving a mouse on a glue trap to expire.

If someone was using a pellet gun, they'd aim it at the head. That'd be a pretty quick death, and much better than starvation/self-mutilation. So far, I have not seen one method on this thread that is worse than yours.

The worst thing about poisoning them without using a trap is that since they don't die right away, they can wind up outside where a larger predator such as the aforementioned owls could catch and eat them, ingesting the poison along with what might be their last dinner.

And? I don't advocate poison either - saying another method is more cruel/just as cruel doesn't invalidate my point.

The point I keep trying to make (and that you continue to ignore) is that at the end of the day there is no truly humane way of 'disposing' of a mouse in a trap.

Yes, there is. Some methods are more humane than others - smacking them on the head is pretty much a swift a death as you can make it. Your logic is rubbish - you are trying to justify what you did based on saying that killing isn't nice? Well, of course it isn't nice - but if you're going to do it, at least make it so that animal doesn't have to suffer so damn much.

I'm not ignoring anything, because your 'point' isn't relevant (or even true, for that matter). You're just using this as an excuse for your action.

They will suffer in some way. smack 'em on the head, poison, drowning, starving, there is no truly humane method (except for possibly the ether method). But you have singled me out as an inhumane jerk because I didn't use one of your approved methods.

Again, you're missing the point. It's about minimising suffering, not dragging it out... even if your intention is killing. Some ways you kill animals are worse than others, sometimes you cannot avoid pain and suffering altogether but sometimes there are situations in which you can minimise it, the one with your glue trap was certainly one of them. I singled you out as an inhumane jerk because you opted to chuck a living mouse stuck on a glue trap into the garbage bin, rather than killing it quickly so it doesn't have to suffer any more. You pretty much deliberately prolonged its misery instead of doing the right thing.

And you're trying to defend this by saying poison is bad and that it isn't humane to kill something? Good grief. It seems you have missed my point about suffering completely. Poisons, that killing is not entirely humane, etc has nothing to do with this at all. The matter of the fact is that you callously prolonged an animal's suffering when you could have avoided it by killing it. Leaving a mouse on a glue trap is torturing it, and that's precisely what you did when you chucked it out in such a state.

Sif compare something like a millisecond death via a heavy object compared to something like lying on a sheet of glue for hours or possibly even days in incredible agony.

NO NO NO. NEVER use a pellet gun on a mouse. Or even a .22. You ever see a wounded mouse turn and charge? You could be in serious danger. Likewise, when hunting mice with an AR15, there are serious issues with the sight height above the barrel. Unless you practice extensively, hitting a mouse at 5 ft with an AR15 is very difficult. You should use a .45 handgun when mouse hunting, or a combat shotgun. You need the stopping power. A single action revolver in a western style quick draw rig is really the best. You can get on target faster than any other carry method.

If you're practically point blank range (ie. finishing off a mouse on a trap), I can't see the problem.

If the protagonist is a crappy shot, the mouse really will suffer. Unless it's a big enough caliber, at which point Mr or Ms Mouse is vaporized. Hmmm... is vaporization humane?

At point blank range, there is also a very real possibilty of a ricochet if said protagonist doesn't have the good sense to be very careful of the backstop.

The glue is not superglue, it's more akin to a contact adhesive. Fun is buying it by the gallon and making your own traps. Think big, like dog big. Or burgler big. It can be downright fun to play with that stuff. Costs about $40 a gallon.

As for poisons being a danger to predators, the mouse/rat doesn't eat enough of the poison to be a menace. That's why you'll find those poison stations at zoos and the like.

Never seen the lizards show any inclination for the baits. Don't think it's the right sort of thing for any lizards to be attracted to. But I'm not a lizard expert.

Do understand how to use poisons. Placing little baggies of poison pellets just causes the critters to go hoard the pellets somewhere, and continue gnawing your cars wires. Get the chunk baits and use the closed bait stations. They can't transport the bait to hoard, so they actually gnaw on the stuff and die.

Want to take poisoning to the next level? Read up on using fly bait and soda.

Ruger MKII 5.5 inch barrel #9 shot. Safe in the house good to 15-20 feet

Jensenman wrote: If the protagonist is a crappy shot, the mouse really will suffer. Unless it's a big enough caliber, at which point Mr or Ms Mouse is vaporized. Hmmm... is vaporization humane?

Yeah, right. At point blank range? You'd have to be blind or quadriplegic.

At point blank range, there is also a very real possibilty of a ricochet if said protagonist doesn't have the good sense to be very careful of the backstop.

If the person has no good sense about it, then they shouldn't even own a bb gun. Nice edit BTW, I have responded to your points with the other post.

foxtrapper wrote: The glue is not superglue, it's more akin to a contact adhesive. Fun is buying it by the gallon and making your own traps. Think big, like dog big. Or burgler big. It can be downright fun to play with that stuff. Costs about $40 a gallon.

It is superglue - it's certainly strong enough.

And what the hell would a trapper need a glue trap for bigger game?

Anybody else think this has gotten a little out of hand.....?

Though, I did just pick up a 22-250, those are good varmint rifles, right? Can you imagine the terror of the mouse as he looks up and sees you there with a gun in his direction?

Sorry, I couldn't help it. Let's get back on topic, or let it die. I do like the bucket idea and may pass that one on to my dad.

Well, if Jensenman didn't use the completely idiotic reasoning of "I'm killing them anyway, so it doesn't matter if I torture them to death", then maybe it wouldn't have.

Yeah, it's gotten out of hand. But now we get to the nub. According to the ASPCA it's OK to torture them by drowning (according to an earlier post) but not OK to let them starve. Ever heard a near drowning victim describe the experience? Yeah, great alternative to starvation.

Right. When you come up with a better argument than 'IMHO killing that way is just wrong and that you are an aimal torturing jerk but my way is OK just because I personally think it's less painful' but with no ~real~ evidence to back it up get back to me. 'Holier than thou' doesn't play well anywhere.

Have a nice day.

HenryC wrote: If the person has no good sense about it, then they shouldn't even own a bb gun.

And that is why we can't even own BB guns in NJ without a firearms permit

I watched my Dad shoot a rat with a 22 rifle at probably 30 yards one day while it was running from one bush to the other. I was probably 8 at the time. He was shooting out of the bathroom window at my grandparents house. Chopped the front legs right out from under it. It tried to keep running on two, but didn't make it far before I got it in the back of the head with my BB gun. I thought it was the greatest thing in the world at the time. He was like the Rifleman. I guess that was cruel too. I'll try not to loose any sleep over a rat. The only good rat is a dead rat and I really don't care how they die. My son got one with a zero turn mower a few weeks ago. Those high lift blades sucked it off the ground and sprayed it all over the place. Cruel or not the most efficient method wins. Happens to be cats at my house right now. If they stop doing their job, out come the traps and glue again.

Some of y'all need to get off your high horses. It's just a disease carrying vermin. Kill it any way possible.

I think the term "Pick your battles" applies to this thread.

So...yeah...I'm out.

HenryC wrote: Well, if Jensenman didn't use the completely idiotic reasoning of "I'm killing them anyway, so it doesn't matter if I torture them to death", then maybe it wouldn't have.

Since all 12 of your posts are in this thread I'm going to offer up a friendly "welcome to GRM" to the new guy.

Since all 12 of you posts are in this thread, and all of them are borderline between disagreeing respectfully and trolling, I'm going to ask that you do a looking around and getting to know people before you decide to refer to someone or their idea as "completely idiotic." This is a friendly forum, and while there are times some of us disagree, as a general rule we don't tolerate that sort of defamation of character. You too are free to disagree, you are not free to insult.

I can remember back when I was a kid my parents were having a dinner party and I was in the family room eating my dinner and watching TV while my parents and their friends ate in the dining room. Well I looked out the sliding glass doors and noticed my dogs looking at their food bowls and I saw that the bowls all had rats in them. Well I went off to tell my parents who at first didn't believe me but finally came in an attempt to prove me wrong and shut me up but sure enough there they were. My dad went to his office and got his .22 pistol out of the desk and went out back and started shooting rats. I think he got 5 or 6 as they scattered. The next day we set out traps.

Around here my dogs,2 Australian cattle dogs, a kelpie, a border collie and a big old shepherd mix hunt and kill more rodents then the cat does.

oldopelguy wrote: I'm going to ask that you do a looking around and getting to know people before you decide to refer to someone or their idea as "completely idiotic." This is a friendly forum, and while there are times some of us disagree, as a general rule we don't tolerate that sort of defamation of character. You too are free to disagree, you are not free to insult.

Please tell me how "looking around" has anything to do with criticising somebody's argument that happens to be on only one thread?

Defamation my left foot, please show me anywhere where I have defamed him? I think his reasoning is silly, and I will say as such. I didn't call him an idiot.

I am attacking the substance of his argument and calling the reasoning idiotic, not the person. For all I know the person would be awesome to have a beer with, but if you've read everything so far, you'll see why I've sinked my teeth into his posts and the reasoning behind it. If it is not idiotic, then it is most certainly flawed - and that isn't in anyway defamation. Though if one wants to paint themselves in a negative light by thoughts or actions, then who am I to stop them?

Tell me, is calling someone's actions cruel and disgusting defamation when they actually do it? That is not any definition of the word I'm aware of.

Toyman01 wrote: I watched my Dad shoot a rat with a 22 rifle at probably 30 yards one day while it was running from one bush to the other. I was probably 8 at the time. He was shooting out of the bathroom window at my grandparents house. Chopped the front legs right out from under it. It tried to keep running on two, but didn't make it far before I got it in the back of the head with my BB gun. I thought it was the greatest thing in the world at the time. He was like the Rifleman. I guess that was cruel too. I'll try not to loose any sleep over a rat. The only good rat is a dead rat and I really don't care how they die. My son got one with a zero turn mower a few weeks ago. Those high lift blades sucked it off the ground and sprayed it all over the place. Cruel or not the most efficient method wins. Happens to be cats at my house right now. If they stop doing their job, out come the traps and glue again. Some of y'all need to get off your high horses. It's just a disease carrying vermin. Kill it any way possible.

You illustrate my point perfectly. Oh it's just "insert animal here". Yeah, I'm sure that's a perfectly reasonable excuse to torture something to death... yeah, "any way possible" hey? See, that's where the problem comes from - that kind of reasoning is used as some sort of excuse to justify pointless cruelty to animals.

And the way you seem to relish it too, is quite disturbing. But it's real nice seeing people willingly engage in unnecessary cruelty when dispatching these critters.

HenryC wrote:

oldopelguy wrote: I'm going to ask that you do a looking around and getting to know people before you decide to refer to someone or their idea as "completely idiotic." This is a friendly forum, and while there are times some of us disagree, as a general rule we don't tolerate that sort of defamation of character. You too are free to disagree, you are not free to insult.

Defamation my left foot, please show me anywhere where I have defamed him? I think his reasoning is silly, and I will say as such. I didn't call him an idiot.

No, you didn't. But this:

HenryC wrote: Well, if Jensenman didn't use the completely idiotic reasoning of "I'm killing them anyway, so it doesn't matter if I torture them to death", then maybe it wouldn't have.

makes you sound like a third grader. You've made your point, and arguing [to this extent] on the internet makes about as much sense as wrestling an octopus. Give it up, teach your children your values, but don't continue to try and beat them into another grown man. I personally agree with you that the glue traps are cruel and if used mice should be put out of their misery quickly, but it really sounds like you are taking one event of Jensenmans life and blowing it completely out of proportion.

But please don't let this thread leave a bad impression of this forum on you, because it really is one of the good places on the internet where you can get good advice on damn near anything without getting made fun of.