I want a plane!

No pilots license, no money, no time, not likely, buuuuut: when my mind wanders to what other motorized obsession I might actually enjoy, planes top the list. I have only really messed around with cars and nothing else. How much would it take for a GRM'ed mindset guy with a family to actually own and operate one that could cart a few people a few hundred miles or so?

I know a guy who took flying lessons and now co-owns a plane with a couple other people. Not sure how much it costs but it is definitely doable on an average salary.

Planes are more costly than boats. Yeah sure you can buy a basic plane for around the cost of a good car. But add in maintenance and that goes up significantly, aircraft parts ain't cheap. You have to pay to get that air certified part and don't get caught using a non-certified part during an annual inspection. Did I mention regular inspection intervals. ANd add a decent avionics and instrument package that can cost more than the airplane. You say you are a do-it-yourselfer, well you still have to pay that inspector to perform the inspections. And that doesn't even mention the pilot lessons and certifications and upkeep off the certifications. Don't forget insurance. And avgas costs more than race gas.
All the above reasons is why I don't own a plane and I am a licensed aircraft mech that can do all the maintenance myself. It can be done if you really want it. I have friends that own their own planes.

If you forget about passengers, you can build an ultralight and fly it without certification I think. Things might have changed, but IIRC, that is the info I got when researching it last year.

An "experimental" aircraft is a way to go. Home built kit planes are pretty cheap...but only if you feel comfortable with your work.

I've entered a local competition to win free flying lessons. Fingers crossed .

I keep seeing stories about guys crashing planes and being several years out of date on inspections-makes me wonder how strict they are about inspection dates.

Being in an "air-club" can help. The local one, that my best friend was in, offers flight lessons. After you get your liscense you can rent the planes.

My dad often bugs me on why I don't fly any more. My standard response is: "It's too expensive. I need a cheap hobby, like racing Porsches."

Something large enough to carry more than one passenger is going to cost. Unlike a car, you'll have upkeep costs even if you're not flying. Even building a home-built kit plane will cost a lot.

I would not go with an ultralight. They scare me. They typically lack any kind of airspeed indicator, so stall-on-takeoff crashes are not uncommon. No radio is bad too.

If you're just looking to experience the joy of flight, I'd look into a Light-Sport aircraft. Basically, it's a 1-2 seater craft that sort of bridges the gap between ultralight and full airplane. Cheaper and easier to fly, and less time to get licensed, but fewer privileges.

http://www.sportpilot.org/

Oh, and airplanes are really really really unforgiving of stupidity.

It's not like you can have a 'beater' plane. That kind doesn't always work well in that third dimension.

"GRM'ed mindset guy" ..."with a family" ..."to actually own and operate one" ..."could cart a few people"

These are COMPLETELY incompatible phrases.

Like Per said, no such thing as a beater plane.

A friend owns a small plane. He bought it (bargain priced) for $225,000, figures on "only" $20K per year to operate. An engine rebuild can cost $20K, and that is considered a regular maintenince item (which you probably can't do yourself). Not very GRM minded friendly.

However, they are VERY business minded friendly. He gets more than that back in savings when all of the depreciation, etc. etc. is calculated.

They are a great match with businesses which can claim and absorb the costs, but not right for people who can't finish their project cars.

I'm working on getting my license right now.

I was given a free plane once. Couldn't afford it.

Seriously. It was a free Piper supercub. The catch, I had to put it in the air. The cost of the various inspections and repairs it was due for cost thousands of dollars more than I had at the time.

More cost effective is to rent by the hour. Been a number of years, but friends would rent little Cesnas for something like $40-60 an hour and we would go flying.

Licenses are expensive, thousands of dollars expensive. But, if you just start with the fair weather recreational licence, that one can be gotten for a grand or a little more if you're a good learner.

You guys are complete buzzkills!

MrJoshua wrote: No pilots license, no money, no time, not likely, buuuuut: when my mind wanders to what other motorized obsession I might actually enjoy, planes top the list. I have only really messed around with cars and nothing else. How much would it take for a GRM'ed mindset guy with a family to actually own and operate one that could cart a few people a few hundred miles or so?

I thought this once too... grand images of me, buzzing around like an idiot in an old WW-I bi-plane with my scarf blowing in the wind. Day tripping to the Carolinas for lunch... barrel rolling my way to work... but apparently there are rules these days. The part where you have to meticulously plan every little thing and tell everyone where you are going ahead of time. Having a radio that isn't blasting Iron Maiden all the time... Asking permission to land... There is nothing spontaneous or exciting about it at all.

All I ever wanted to be was a pilot. Now 57 YO and still no license.

Private ticket costs 4-5k. Light sport license half that or less. Experimental aircraft you build yourself and can work on it yourself. There are all sorts of alternative engines avaible such as AC VW, BMW motorcycle, even Geo metro conversions. But you are flying behind and engne you likely rebuilt yourself. You feel lucky punk? Cost of overhauling a certified aircaft engine makes a race motor look cheap.

I love planes! Look at all the automobiles through history, airplanes have a wider diversity, engineering moves in leaps and bounds and there was some pretty weird stuff out there.

I used to hang glide but it's not really a family sport.

For Christmas Mrs. 914 got me a membership in the local Sailplane club. For $500 you get the FAA required ground school and the flight instruction to get your license. You are charged $15 to get towed to 1000 feet, $20 for 2000 and $25 to 3000. I've been up a few times and it's less frightening each time.

Imagine sitting in a sleeping bag, look down at your feet, that's it, that's all the plane you get. I've had a couple of holy E36 M3 moments, but I'm getting better.

Consider soaring, it's great flying experience and from there it's a short hop to a motorized stamp.

This is the Grob trainer, student up front, instructor in back.

I've been dreaming about soaring for 30 years... ever since reading a Readers Digest piece about it. It definitely seems like the cheapest way to get the experience of flying... "cheap" being a relative term...

Flying is expensive but it can be done affordably. I have been involved in the air charter business since 1990 and the aviation insurance business for just over a year. The cheapest way to accomplish the goals in the original post would be a 40 year old Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee, these are the most common airplanes in the world. They seat 4 can be purchased for $20,000 - $40,000. That will get a reliable, well maintained basic airplane. It will have basic navigational capability, cruise at 120 mph and burn 7-8 gallons of fuel per hour. Insurance will cost $600-$900 per year for full flight coverage, much less for liability only. An owner assisted annual inspection is not expensive, I have heard that they can be done for $300-$400 if major problems such as corrosion are not found. Most basic maintainance can be done be the owner and major work can be done by the owner with the supervision of a licensed A&P ( airframe and powerplant mechanic). An instructor will cost $20-$50 per hour with a minimum of 20 hours required to get a private license. Fuel is $4.50-$6.00 per gallon, a STC (supplemental type certificate) for auto gas is available for most light airplanes. A rough way to gauge the cost is 2-3 times your fuel bill will cover the hourly cost of the airplane. Partnerships and clubs are other good ways to cut the fixed cost of ownership.

I was walking my dog and noticed a plane sticking out of a guys garage. Mind you the neighbourhood I grew up in was mainly lower middle class blue collar people with houses nearly reaching $150xxx. Planes in garages aren't necessarily a common sight in this hood its what I'm getting at here.

So apparently this guy was rebuilding a crashed plane. I don't usually buy new, but in the case of a plane, I think I'd get the planefax.

One of our old crew guys had a nice 6 seater turbo prop and used to fly us to events. It was great! We could still have our normal jobs and then get to races all across the country very easily.

It was a nice turbo prop with retractable landing gear but not one that you woud think would be out of reach of most flyers (Cessna T210). The price tag about $350k for one is similar condition and year, the insurance around $2k a month if I remember correctly. Then there was maintenance, storage fees, landing fees, etc. You really needed to be pretty well off to fly it. Fuel however wasn't that bad. Engine rebuilds were very expensive though, and had to be done to a schedule.

To offset the costs, he flew it for work quite a bit and his company picked up the tab for the convenience. The last I heard lawyers found out about it and he had to stop the practice. He sold it and now is part of a flying club with several planes. It's a lot less expensive than flying your own. In the end it is still expensive.

Some years ago I priced out something like a Beechcraft with insurance and upkeep. About 10 years ago it would have run around $4k a month for all the fees involved.

My neighbor is pretty awesome. One of those guys who retired at 50 because they could. ex-commercial pilot, ex-cop, ex-air force captain...ect. Sort of a "Most interesting man in the world" type dude.

He has one similar to this in his garage

Aircooled VW powered 1/4 scale mustang. He also has another plane at the airport. I talked to him about flying once because, like everybody else I would love to get started. I got the impression that having uncle sam train you via one of the armed services was pretty much the only way for a person of limited means to get involved.

The local community college's 2 year flight school costs were high enough that I simply could not fathom ever having the means to go that route.

Watching this

http://www.markevans.co.uk/acatalog/A_Plane_is_Born.html

makes it look even more like something I want to do.

Try ParaSailing or hang gliding or an ultra light... Maybe?

My friend wanted to fly and after investigating costs, punted. He loves going up and flying around, but it definitely doesn't allow for friends and family to ride along.

I've flown gliders a couple of times and love it, and it appears that I live in one of the really good spots for flying gliders.

I need another expensive hobby like I need a hole in the head...

It cost me $1900 to get my private license in 1989-1990. I found an instructor that owned a Cessna 150. He rented it for $17 per hour including fuel, 3-4 gallons per hour, and he charged $20 for his time. The only cheaper way that I know of is to buy a training airplane and hire an instructor. My advice on selecting an instructor is to find an older, more experienced one. The young instructor trying to build time to move on to an airline job is a competent pilot that will teach you to pass the licensing exam. The older instructor has experience that will make you a better, safer pilot. The big, shiny flight school with new airplanes equipped with the latest GPS, autopilots, etc. will make you poor very quickly. A small airport mom and pop type place is a lot less costly and in my opinion produces better pilots.

That plane in the pic above looks like an RV8. I guess you said it "looks" like his plane. That plane is almost certainly powered by a Lycoming engine (probably a 360) which go for a good $15000 by themselves (probably higher). Nice planes though (flush riveted), I think the are around a 2000 hour build time.

Cessna 150's don't go for $17 an hour any more BTW, more like $80+ an hour. And that is for a plane that seats 2 and does 100 knots. Av Gas can push $6 a gallon, so just fuel cost will be around $36 an hour.

Private aviation can be very expensive. If you want to go more grassroots, and you live in a more rural area, I would look into the ultra lights and such. They are kind of "old school" flying.