I'd like to discuss something very, VERY seriously...

stroker said:

If this chart is correct (Wikipedia) then the rate of killing spouses is falling but the rate of killing children is increasing in the last 40 years--it's getting close to doubling.  Wikipedia claims about 900 "familicides" in the hundred years from 1900 to 2000 and the article linked above claims 227 in the last three years.  

If this is correct, the answer is very simple: The Covid Pandemic

The Covid Pandemic has been a massive stress and strain. It has seen a jump in overall violent crime from historic lows following a continuous downward trend. The jump in violent crime correlates *exactly* with the start of Covid Lockdowns.

At the same time, people have been forced to stay home.

People are more anxious, stressed, and fearful - thus more violent. They are more isolated and interacting almost exclusively with family. That means family members will become the victims of violence.

What's the underlying concern here? Some implied trend of moral decay? If that's what you're worried about, go open literally any history textbook. You'll find that humans alive today are much less murdery and a lot more "moral" compared to any that came before. Especially Christians. Heck there used to be entire societies based around infanticide (Mayans, Spartans, etc). Now we have systems of government based on power derived from the common people, who have unlimited communication and are constantly debating how to improve our world. We're doing alright.

Many good points made, figure good to throw them in one post, plus an idea or two of my own:

• Murder rates dropped by about 50% from 1980 to 2008, so assuming familial murders fell at the same rates, it means child murder rates didn't increase, but they also didn't fall.  However, it is also possible that familial murders have dropped as a percentage of the overall murder rate, or increased, so more research would be needed, just to establish solid numbers where inferences could start being made from.
• Data from 2009-2020 would also be handy to have to see if it matches up with the overall changes in murder rates.
• Divorce was significantly destigmatized during the time period, meaning abused spouses now have more opportunity to be away from an abuser.
• Meth and heroin are more prevalent.

I'll add a few points myself:

• Institutionalization of potentially violent mentally ill people has been drastically reduced in favor of outpatient treatment.  No judgment on this one from me, as a lot of people who were of no threat to others were also caught up in the same system.
• Increased radicalization of some of the population.
• Reporting/recording of child murders may have gotten better over the nearly 3 decade period.  Wouldn't surprise me if some things that used to be "accidents" are not as easy to cover up.  

eastsideTim said:

Many good points made, figure good to throw them in one post, plus an idea or two of my own:

• Murder rates dropped by about 50% from 1980 to 2008, so assuming familial murders fell at the same rates, it means child murder rates didn't increase, but they also didn't fall.  However, it is also possible that familial murders have dropped as a percentage of the overall murder rate, or increased, so more research would be needed, just to establish solid numbers where inferences could start being made from.
• Data from 2009-2020 would also be handy to have to see if it matches up with the overall changes in murder rates.

Some very broad data from 2009-2020 was presented earlier.

Murder rates (and probably overall violent crime rates) stayed low but fluctuated from 1998-2019. Violent crime and murder rates jumped sharply in 2020, with all evidence pointing towards the Covid-19 pandemic as the direct cause.

According to data presented, in the span of 2020-2023 it appears that violence within the home saw a disproportionately large increase. (My hypothesis is that this is due to lockdowns, working from home, and otherwise more being "stuck" with family.)

We have not yet been presented with raw numbers of rates for familiar murder leading up to 2020 to see if those murder rates were in line with overall murder rates or not.

No one has yet presented any evidence that religion or secularism have any causal relationship with violent crime or murder. Arguably there is a correlation between rise in secularism and decreased violent crime, but there is no evidence of a causal relationship. Correlation does not imply causation. Murder rates correlate very closely with Ice Cream consumption.

1988RedT2 said:

I really didn't mean to say anything controversial.

I tried very hard to stay out of this as promised, but I can't.

Please understand I am not directing this at you personally.  You are just representing, so to speak.  This may be offensive to you, and I apologize in advance for that.  I can only say that it is not intended that way, and when I say "you", I mean "the type of person".

You are the religious equivalent of what gay people used to call a "breeder".

You have found, or were probably born into, a mode of spirituality that works for you. It works so well for you that you can't see why it isn't universal.  You can't or won't understand that your mode may be counterproductive or even intolerable for others.  This isn't unique to Christians in any way.  It's just that the majority of religious Americans are Christians and so Christians are who we atheist, agnostic, and secular Americans bump into regularly.

So your comment may not have been intended to be controversial. I will accept your statement at face value.

But the underlying problem is that you couldn't even begin to see that it could be controversial - let alone why.

A Miata can be a very good car for driving on the track and learning to be a skilled driver.

Just because you drive a Miata, doesn't mean that you will certainly learn to be a good driver. Just because you do not drive a Miata, does not mean that you won't learn to be a good driver.

I'm really glad that you love your Miata. Do not tell people they don't know how to drive and are not having fun on track just because they don't drive a Miata.

maschinenbau said:

US murder rate is way lower today ... it has crept up slightly in recent years. 

That's a near doubling in less than 10 years. That's unacceptable, by my standards, for a society I want to live in.

In reply to 9000kw :

Closer to 50%, but yes, any increase isn't good.

9000kw said:

That's a near doubling in less than 10 years. That's unacceptable, by my standards, for a society I want to live in.

It's not in 10 years. It's a jump in ONE year. That jump is *just* in 2020.

Did something major happen in 2020?

Beer Baron said:

9000kw said:

That's a near doubling in less than 10 years. That's unacceptable, by my standards, for a society I want to live in.

It's not in 10 years. It's a jump in ONE year. That jump is *just* in 2020.

Did something major happen in 2020?

2019 was 6.0 2020 was 7.8. That is a 30% increase in 1 year. Still incredibly high, but 30% is nowhere near as bad as 100%.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I should have been more clear - I had meant the familial murder data from 2009-2020 would be good to see, to compare it with the overall murder rate info that had been provided in the thread.

eastsideTim said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

I should have been more clear - I had meant the familial murder data from 2009-2020 would be good to see, to compare it with the overall murder rate info that had been provided in the thread.

Agreed. We do *not* have that data here. Therefore we can't make hypotheses on "why there is more family crime" when don't even know IF there is more family crime.

2020 and onward is clearly an outlier due to a very obvious event with mass societal consequences. Even with the spike in violence in the wake of the Covid Pandemic, violent crime rates are still lower than they'd been prior to the Clinton administration.

Duke said:

1988RedT2 said:

Most Christians will inherently know what the answer is.  Many secularists will remain in denial.

REALLY?!

Thus ends my participation in this thread.

 

He knows the answer is in Ezekiel 23:20. It guides my life to this day. 

Ok. Serious post.  
 

we're disconnected and siloed as people.   We have little  social safety net and health care is expensive or out of reach for many. 
 

It's multi variable problem. 

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Available on Amazon.

In reply to Stampie :

My father in law is a catholic deacon. I need that shirt. 

Another one.

Another one.  Not the same as I just posted.

In reply to stroker :

There may be a bit of confirmation bias going on here:  if you starting looking for some effect, you will eventually find it (e.g. summer of the shark), whether it exists or not.

If there is some reality to the trend (as hard as it is to conceive) there also may be a bit of an awareness of this being something that can be done.  As in, people become aware that it is something that happens, so that gives a certain justification / motivation to others.  I am pretty certain this is the case with school shootings.  If no one was aware it was "a thing" I am almost sure 90% of these shootings (the real ones, not the gang type shooting on the properties) would not have happened. 

In reply to aircooled :

I think you're right.  It might also be that this is something hiding in plain sight, obscured by all the information clutter flowing past our eyeballs and attention spans every day. 

But the question needs to be asked: if exposure to news media reporting leads to "acceptance" of a heinous act being a "justifiable" action, then what does that say about morals and the concepts of Right and Wrong--in this case ignoring the unacceptability of murdering your own children. 

Then as a logical follow-on, the question needs to be asked what if it's not a copycat effect?  What if something fundamental and profound has changed in this culture at this specific time, which is the reason I made the very first post in this thread?  I know it's not just one thing, but that's not my primary concern.  My primary concern is that something/s have changed, making something that used to be unacceptable (murdering your children) as acceptable in the minds of significantly more people in this society.  

There are few other things I can think of which demand immediate exploration and serious analysis more.  

I need to find better data.

stroker said:

 

I need to find better data.

Nothing at all wrong with digging more into a potential problem.  It's important to recognize any biases you may have, too, as so much of what is posted is for "engagement", and rage-bait is really good at that.  The more someone gets riled up, the more dopamine they get.  And of course, anything involving children is an easy way to trigger an emotional response.
It may prove there is something to this issue, or it may be bs, or it could be related to issues pointed out in this thread, or issues not pointed out in this thread.

My personal beliefs to the contributing factors, in order of magnitude:

1. Mental health issues caused by or accelerated by social media
2. Life is too expensive. Most significantly for this space, medical care is far too expensive, but don't discount literally everything else. I know too many people who have been responsible and yet are still living with their parents. A close friend of ours sold their house, moved in with their parents for what was supposed to be 2 months max. It turned into 4 years because they just could not afford it - this was an engineer and a college professor (note that this was complicated by Covid and they also had expensive IVF care, but somehow I don't think that medical care for an engineer and a college professor should stop them from buying a house).
3. Lack of mental healthcare availability
4. Lack of reasonable gun control measures
5. Covid related issues... 

Huh, I guess that all of these are basically mental health issues. Well, except for the gun control part - though it is still tangentially related.

Anecdotally, to my knowledge, I know - or knew at one time - two people who have been convicted for murder. One had parents who were Christian missionaries. The other went to Catholic schools for at least 6-12. So out of my very, very small sample size, I would go the other direction from 1988RedT2's assessment. But I wouldn't make any assumptions off of that sample size, because out of the same sample I could also make the assumption that it is a trend among people who have first names that start with the letter "V" and last names of German origin. 
EDIT: Forgot I know another person convicted of either manslaughter or murder. But that person was the poster child of "drugs are bad, mmkay?"

stroker said:

In reply to aircooled :

.....My primary concern is that something/s have changed, making something that used to be unacceptable (murdering your children) as acceptable in the minds of significantly more people in this society...

My thinking on the copycat effect is less that it is somehow more OK to do, but more that knowledge of it puts a seed in the mind of something you can do that is horrifically hurtful or horrible that you might not have otherwise thought of. It gives you a bit of doomsday option, if you will.

E.g. in the past, you might have thought to somehow ambush your bully at school with rocks as he walks home or something (which realistically would get you a bigger beating, so probably not going to happen). Now days, if it really gets bad... there is a truly horrific option that you know of....  There could be similar situations with families I suspect.

aircooled said:

stroker said:

In reply to aircooled :

.....My primary concern is that something/s have changed, making something that used to be unacceptable (murdering your children) as acceptable in the minds of significantly more people in this society...

My thinking on the copycat effect is less that it is somehow more OK to do, but more that knowledge of it puts a seed in the mind of something you can do that is horrifically hurtful or horrible that you might not have otherwise thought of. It gives you a bit of doomsday option, if you will.

E.g. in the past, you might have thought to somehow ambush your bully at school with rocks as he walks home or something (which realistically would get you a bigger beating, so probably not going to happen). Now days, if it really gets bad... there is a truly horrific option that you know of....  There could be similar situations with families I suspect.

The thing that is nagging me and won't go away is that the child murder is being done for a specific effect--but we'll probably never know whether the woman in Florida killed her son 

1. because in some way she felt giving her son to her ex husband's custody was somehow detrimental to the son (child abuse?)

2. because she knew killing the son would be the most effective way to inflict pain on the ex husband and the court that awarded him custody of the boy

3. something else

and I've got a feeling that #2 has somehow become an acceptable option because children have somehow become devalued (or conversely, their rights as parents have become overvalued)  in the minds of their parents.  I don't understand it, which is why I'm asking the question.