Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:We're overrun with the mall crawlers around here. Between the Jeeps and the 4x4 trucks, I'd estimate that a pretty high percentage of them never get off of the pavement.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect that LED lighting in the wheels, wheel wells and under the body doesn't really hold up off-road.
Actually, rock lights are a legitimate thing for crawling at night. Mud boggin'? Maybe not.
It's a jeep thing and I will never understand. Jeep is one of the few that offer a Manual transmission SUV. The pricing has always been crazy, I could never justify it especially with the low tow rating. Then there is this stuff below that you have to do, "because we can"
golfduke said:man, I just... Dont get it (Wranglers). I've had first-hand experience with several, and unless you are beaching or off-roading it with frequency, they're just terrible vehicles. They're noisy, uncomfortable, they track like poop, they're heinously overpriced, and waving at people annoys me. My boss and mother both own unlimiteds, and both of them have burned through tires and full brake assemblies in less than 20k.
... not to mention the mall crawler, 'Just buy everything from the smittybuilt catalog and bolt it on' crowd just makes me... sad? Annoyed? I dunno. Sure, you can take the doors and top off. I guess that's cool sometimes... but is it really, REALLY, worth all of the crap you have to put up with otherwise? I know, I know, it's a lifestyle...
Yeah that was my experience too. Having driven a few, I really don't get it.
Wranglers are actually really really good at their core purpose. Towing is not that purpose, judging them by their towing ability is like judging an Exige by luggage capacity.
The fact that most of them aren't used to their fullest potential there doesn't take that away. And just like how putting a wing on a stock Civic doesn't invalidate wings on competition cars, Wranglers with stinger bars and LED lights on the street doesn't mean those things weren't developed for function.
My views may be skewed by the fact that I live where Jeeps really do get used offroad - all the mall crawlers are trying to look like Moab rigs, while the Jeeps around here ARE Moab rigs.
Having driven one all over the back half of a Caribbean island for our honeymoon, I get it. A lot. Each time a new car purchase gets considered I hit up that genre again. It's not practical for me but two things:
1. Your play is affected by the toys you have (i.e. I would find places/opportunities to use it)
2. I get an unexplainable kick out of driving a motorized vehicle off of a road. Anyone else?? MAN it's funny but it makes me smile taking the back grass path thru the woods at my MIL's house in the minivan, or even driving a riding mower. I don't get it, but I get it
I will give a nod to the Jeep Gladiator since it is one of the few pickups left that you can get with a stick (roll-up windows also!).
In reply to dxman92 :
Yup. That's how I got mine, manual, roll up windows, soft top. Not the cheapest crew cab pickup, but I like it and it was reasonably cheap at $34k.
I had a couple of friends with CJ's when I was younger. I wasn't really into them because the tops leaked and they drove like a tractor. The newer ones are much improved. I admit I haven't done much offroad driving with mine yet, except for the beach, but it's nice to have a new basic truck.
I think the hate here is funny. I would have thought that a group of supposed gear heads would embrace possibly the last consumer vehicle on earth that makes so few compromises to it's intended purpose. It's rough and loud because the things that make it rough and loud also help it to do more than a Kia Rondo can do. It gets poor fuel economy because the gearing, tires, and ground clearance that are needed to do more than an H2 or H3 could dream of require that.
I suspect the same folks that would complain about the Jeep would also complain that a Lamborghini gets poor fuel economy and can only seat 2, or that a Piper Cub sucks on the highway or won't fit in your garage. Think of some of the cars that have come out in the past that were race cars made legal for the street with little nods to creature comforts. That's the mindset behind the Jeep Wrangler. In stock form it's an incredible machine. The Rubicon trim level is the off-road equivalent of a serious Italian exotic in terms of it's ability to perform to an extreme degree. Go to youtube and watch some footage of stock wranglers on the Rubicon trail.
I'm currently daily driving my 16th (?) Jeep. Stock it's got a big v-8, Dana 60 rear end (sorta, long story) with a tight lsd, good ground clearance, approach, departure, and break-over angles, and can creep along in low range.
Are they priced out of reason? In my opinion yes. But they are selling as many as they can build. The bean counters would tell you that they are priced just right. Most of these 50-60K rigs won't see dirt. Good. In 10 or 20 years I'll be shopping for a 4-door wrangler with a v-8. Low miles, never been off-road.
In reply to DrBoost :
There are a lot of guys on the board that hate anything that is different from what they like. It didn't use to be that way on here. It's been getting worse over the last couple of years. 
As for the price. I think it's insane, but people will buy them so I don't know what I'm talking about.
In reply to DrBoost :
I don't hate it. I just don't get it unless you are going off road which at least 95% of Jeeps don't do. If owning a Jeep and not using it off road flips your switch, great. It doesn't bother me. I just don't understand why someone would buy it if that is all they are going to do having driven to JKs and a TJ. They just do nothing for me and I'd never use the capability of it.
In reply to DrBoost :
On a budget car site a minimalist Jeep is posted that is expensive because of high demand and low production, sounds more like bate and flex to me. I have been in the new wranglers as my co-worker has a minimalist manual transmission and manual windows. It's cool but the majority of people have mentioned it's not worth the money, in a community that is budget minded. 10 to 20 years maybe we won't have enough petrol to fill them up, making them budget money.
My sister had a few Jeeps (CJ5 and CJ7) and I had the opportunity to drive them quite a bit. This was while living at the beach, where it totally makes sense. With no doors on and a bimini top, it was a great DD at the beach. You looked cool, the AC never worked in cars we could afford so it was a great way to stay cool, and you could drive it on the beach for surf days. We never drove more than a few miles, so gas mileage wasn't a big deal. The harsh ride and wandering steering were kinda endearing, and the simple nature of a CJ5 was kinda cool.
As a DD, a Jeep makes as much sense as anything else that isn't an Accord or Camry, you buy it because you like it and maybe 1% of the time you take it off-road. Maybe at the beach, or when you rent a cabin, or during a blizzard. Same as a Corvette, how often do you track it? Or a Dodge Ram with 800hp. Or a Miata. It's a lifestyle choice.
DrBoost said:I think the hate here is funny. I would have thought that a group of supposed gear heads would embrace possibly the last consumer vehicle on earth that makes so few compromises to it's intended purpose. It's rough and loud because the things that make it rough and loud also help it to do more than a Kia Rondo can do. It gets poor fuel economy because the gearing, tires, and ground clearance that are needed to do more than an H2 or H3 could dream of require that.
I suspect the same folks that would complain about the Jeep would also complain that a Lamborghini gets poor fuel economy and can only seat 2, or that a Piper Cub sucks on the highway or won't fit in your garage. Think of some of the cars that have come out in the past that were race cars made legal for the street with little nods to creature comforts. That's the mindset behind the Jeep Wrangler. In stock form it's an incredible machine. The Rubicon trim level is the off-road equivalent of a serious Italian exotic in terms of it's ability to perform to an extreme degree. Go to youtube and watch some footage of stock wranglers on the Rubicon trail.
I'm currently daily driving my 16th (?) Jeep. Stock it's got a big v-8, Dana 60 rear end (sorta, long story) with a tight lsd, good ground clearance, approach, departure, and break-over angles, and can creep along in low range.
Are they priced out of reason? In my opinion yes. But they are selling as many as they can build. The bean counters would tell you that they are priced just right. Most of these 50-60K rigs won't see dirt. Good. In 10 or 20 years I'll be shopping for a 4-door wrangler with a v-8. Low miles, never been off-road.
That's fair, I'm not going to argue much of anything on that. I didn't say I hated them- I just simply am stating that the "lifestyle" part annoys me. I'd venture to say that 90% of Wrangler buyers are specifically like my mother- 60 year olds with mobility issues that buy them because they want something 'cool'. I can totally relate to that, I'm in full on mid-life crisis mode too! But a high ground clearance jeep that is never going to see its intended designed purpose AND is inconvenient to use/drive/get into and out of... just doesn't make sense to me.
That's it, that's all. I owned a trail YJ with D60's and an LT1. I have *zero* issues with jeeps used somewhat as intended, I swear!
Who decides what the "correct" use for any vehicle is? Maybe people don't care about going off-road, but want a convertible that seats Dad, Mom, and the 2 kids.
ultraclyde said:After having ZJ I totally get the attraction of a Jeep. I'll probably own another one at some point. But where I live they're toys, and not toys I can really use anywhere near by. A stock height, 4 cyl jeep is massive overkill for anything within a 3 hour drive, and even then you'd be at a pay-to-play park.
Not a chance I'd own one I needed to use as an actual vehicle.
But they'll still sell plenty of those V8 models, likely at a sizable mark up.
ZJs are the jam. Extremely comfy seats, pretty decent ride quality, much more livable than a Wrangler while still being incredibly capable if you need it to be. The biggest issue with ZJs is they rust badly and the transmissions are garbage unless you hunt down a unicorn manual transmission model (yes, they made them!) or the equally unicorn Aisin Aw4 transmission model (1993 4.0L models only)
And, yeah, cringe at the price of the V8 models or question their purpose all you want, Jeep will still likely move every one of them that they can build.
Steve_Jones said:Who decides what the "correct" use for any vehicle is? Maybe people don't care about going off-road, but want a convertible that seats Dad, Mom, and the 2 kids.
Or 3 kids! The Gladiator and 4 Door Wrangler are, to my knowledge, the only 5 seat convertibles available - though the new Bronco may add another option. And they have been for a long, long time. In fact, I don't think that there was a 5 seat convertible available in the US between the end of the Defender (actually, I don't think the Defender had the jump seats in the convertible option EDIT: I was wrong, they're all convertibles! See Keith's comment below) and the introduction of the 4 door Jeep, and if we don't count SUVs/Tractors, there wasn't one available probably since the late 70's.
If I was looking for a brand new pickup, I'd be getting a Gladiator. Why? It is a convertible, and it tows enough for my needs. End of discussion. Convertibles are better than non convertibles.
You can take the roof off any Defender, they're all convertibles :) The US market 110 is basically a 9 seat convertible.
My neighbor has a '99 Wrangler, 4 cylinder 5 speed 4x4 that's been sitting on flat tires in her yard for years....it was her son's college vehicle, but he's since moved on. I have made mention to her that I'm interested in it. I don't need it, but at least I could drag it home with my tractor...
Part of the problem is, though, I have no idea how much to offer her for it. Jeep pricing is all over the place. FB MP has rusty ones needing frames asking for $2k, or somewhat nice looking ones for 4 or 5. I feel like if I oculd get it for under 2 it would be hard to go wrong. I glanced under it and the frame doesn't look bad and the floors have only minor rust.
mtn said:Steve_Jones said:Who decides what the "correct" use for any vehicle is? Maybe people don't care about going off-road, but want a convertible that seats Dad, Mom, and the 2 kids.
Or 3 kids! The Gladiator and 4 Door Wrangler are, to my knowledge, the only 5 seat convertibles available - though the new Bronco may add another option. And they have been for a long, long time. In fact, I don't think that there was a 5 seat convertible available in the US between the end of the Defender (actually, I don't think the Defender had the jump seats in the convertible option EDIT: I was wrong, they're all convertibles! See Keith's comment below) and the introduction of the 4 door Jeep, and if we don't count SUVs/Tractors, there wasn't one available probably since the late 70's.
If I was looking for a brand new pickup, I'd be getting a Gladiator. Why? It is a convertible, and it tows enough for my needs. End of discussion. Convertibles are better than non convertibles.
Chrysler sebring? Toyota solara? (the e30 in your profile pic), e36/e46 m3s? fiat 500 and mini cooper with awkward roof thingies? GEO/Suzuki models?
did any of those have 5 seats? (but still good point since I'd take the wrangler over many of the above verts).
Unfortunately, all this has done is make me even more interested in assembling a cheap crawler with at least 3 seats for me and the kids.
These is a pretty decent (from photos) Montero (Pajero) nearby for $1200 needing brakes...
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:mtn said:Steve_Jones said:Who decides what the "correct" use for any vehicle is? Maybe people don't care about going off-road, but want a convertible that seats Dad, Mom, and the 2 kids.
Or 3 kids! The Gladiator and 4 Door Wrangler are, to my knowledge, the only 5 seat convertibles available - though the new Bronco may add another option. And they have been for a long, long time. In fact, I don't think that there was a 5 seat convertible available in the US between the end of the Defender (actually, I don't think the Defender had the jump seats in the convertible option EDIT: I was wrong, they're all convertibles! See Keith's comment below) and the introduction of the 4 door Jeep, and if we don't count SUVs/Tractors, there wasn't one available probably since the late 70's.
If I was looking for a brand new pickup, I'd be getting a Gladiator. Why? It is a convertible, and it tows enough for my needs. End of discussion. Convertibles are better than non convertibles.
Chrysler sebring? Toyota solara? (the e30 in your profile pic), e36/e46 m3s? fiat 500 and mini cooper with awkward roof thingies? GEO/Suzuki models?
did any of those have 5 seats? (but still good point since I'd take the wrangler over many of the above verts).
Nope. None of them had 3 seatbelts across the back. Could you add one? Probably. Would it be legal? Uhhh dunno?
My neighbor growing up - a car salesman, now I think he may own a dealership, told me it was because of a federal law requiring 4 doors in to have 3 seats in the back in a convertible. I don't know if there was any truth in that statement.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
Make sure you check the frame around the front section of the rear wheels closely. TJ's are so notorious for rotting out there frame replacement sections are widely available.
The 4cylinders are usually valued a significant bit lower than the sixes.
mtn said:If I was looking for a brand new pickup, I'd be getting a Gladiator. Why? It is a convertible, and it tows enough for my needs. End of discussion. Convertibles are better than non convertibles.
That's how I ended up with one. I had a F-350 Crew Cab long bed. A few months ago it was worth more than I bought it for new in 2017. I wasn't using it that much and figured a small truck would work, so I traded it in on a Tacoma. The Tacoma was plenty of truck for what I needed, but I just didn't like it. I figured if I was ok with a small truck, might as well have one that's fun too, so traded the Tacoma in on a Gladiator. The only complaint I had on the Jeep was it felt like it needed more power, so I had a supercharger installed.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
At 2k or less, it would be ok. They are pretty easy to fix up and parts availability is great.
Look for rust in the frame and in the passenger side body at the pinch weld behind the rear tire.
The lower rear welds that hold the rear passenger side panel with the hinges for the tailgate-door are another bad spot. If the tailgate won't close without lifting and some muscle then that panel has probably broken free at the lower welds.
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