Just added one to the "will never own" list.

Fourth Gen Maxima. Do not want.

One of my crew guys at work bought one for four hundred bucks. Wheel bearings and water pump shot. Said the local shops wanted six hundred or so to do the wp. I said load it on the trailer and bring it to the house and I'll replace the wp and pull the knuckles so you can go have the new wheel bearings pressed in.

Started on the wp yesterday and things were going fairly well up until it was time to put the new wp in. Fought for over two hours just trying to get the bolts started so I could pull the new pump into place. Finally after I lost feeling in my finger tips I cut down a couple sockets to use as spacers so I could use the timing chain tensioner bolts to pull the wp in enough that I could get the wp bolts started.

Stupid FWD piece of E36 M3. I guess it's interesting from an engineering standpoint but running the stupid wp off of the stupid timing chain, behind the timing cover and giving no access to get to anything is stupid.

It's enough for me to swear off ever owning one. I don't care how good of a car they are. Give me a Grand Prix any day.

nicksta43 wrote: Stupid FWD piece of E36 M3. I guess it's interesting from an engineering standpoint but running the stupid wp off of the stupid timing chain, behind the timing cover and giving no access to get to anything is stupid.

Welcome to owning a 2.4 Dodge. Same setup, but at least the water pump bolts up without fanfare. I LOVE 2.4's. Easiest 800 bux you can make off someone. Even more if they overheated it, as the head has to come off to a surface and new gasket.

Oh that is a throwaway PT Cruiser.

Work on a 20-year old benz then talk to me. I thought I'd had my butt kicked many times as a professional tech.....then Adolf came into my life. I've never known frustration like this before.
But, because of that, I feel your pain brother. There are other cars I'll never own because of that.

There are worse. Ever do the chain and water pump on a Chrysler 2.7? On top of being a total pain in the ass, the Intrepid in question decided it didn't like sitting there tore down to a long block to line the cams up and put the chain on, and attempted to start itself, with the fuel rails and sparkplugs out. I guess this is why they tell you to disconnect the battery. I've never seen my dad rip out relays so fast.

PT cruiser timing belts are equally awful, they pay something like 8 hours, for a FWD timing belt. The FSM tells you to discharge the AC system!

Kenny_McCormic wrote: There are worse. Ever do the chain and water pump on a Chrysler 2.7?

I HAVE! The most miserable 3 days of my life. I never understood the ONE single solitary Torx head bolt either on the timing cover.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: PT cruiser timing belts are equally awful, they pay something like 8 hours, for a FWD timing belt. The FSM tells you to discharge the AC system!

Once you do a couple, you can get them down into the 5.5-6hr range. Provided the timing belt and cams cooperate. I can also say, never have I done any AC discharge on a PT EVER for a pump/timing belt. I think I left the rad and condensor in the car and just had to remove the upper tie bar to have some working room. Biggest bitch on these is the multi piece timing cover. Everything else is manageable.

As I recall the one I helped with we left the AC hooked up, there was a lot of jacking the engine way up to hit one bolt and then nearly dropping it on the ground for the next.

How many times have I said/thought ?

"Must have been designed by an engineer."

iceracer wrote: How many times have I said/thought ? "Must have been designed by an engineer."

You realize the decisions that make E36 M3 like this exist are not made by engineers, right?

i SEVERELY hate the alternator belt tensioner setup on Nissans.

Bruce

In reply to egnorant:

Yeah, way more time went in to getting that off than I would have liked as well.

iceracer wrote: How many times have I said/thought ? "Must have been designed by an engineer, then ruined by accountants and management."

FTFY

Want to see a car built by engineers, start to finish? Go look at a W126 Mercedes and find one thing wrong with it that you can blame on the engineers, there is nothing, the car is without flaw.

Kenny_McCormic wrote:

iceracer wrote: How many times have I said/thought ? "Must have been designed by an engineer, then ruined by accountants and management."

FTFY

and stylists...

In reply to Ranger50:

With that 2.4 what tends to go with overheating just the head gasket or should I be expecting other damage? My old lady's is sitting in the driveway now, we know the waterpump went and there was oil and coolant both leaking.

In reply to jere:

Gasket and a resurface of the head, it warps looking at it wrong in the sun. If it is nearing or over 75k, put a timing belt on it. If it doesn't have the updated timing belt tensioner, replace it. Then just book on it taking what seems like forever to fix it. Probably take the better part of a whole weekend. Only gem of advise: Once the belt is on and tight, rotate the crank twice and verify the cams are degreed properly, you can read the letters and they are inline with each other. TDC is just a notch and an arrow on the block.

I feel that way about Chevy malibu's of the 2000 model year and similar.

I did a heater core for my sister, and could not believe what had to come out.

Had to remove the dash including instrument cluster, all the hvac, steering column, air bags, support frame and pretty much anything between the front seat and firewall.

Then the heater box come out of the car to be opened up and the heater core replaced. Luckily the a/c wasn't charged, since that had to be disconnected as well.

Kenny_McCormic wrote:

iceracer wrote: How many times have I said/thought ? "Must have been designed by an engineer, then ruined by accountants and management."

FTFY Want to see a car built by engineers, start to finish? Go look at a W126 Mercedes and find one thing wrong with it that you can blame on the engineers, there is nothing, the car is without flaw.

that might have been true when engineers designed a car. Now they design a part, and most have NO concept of anything more than 2" away from that part. Now, I'm not talking about every automotive engineer, just the ones I've worked with (encompassing two of the "big three). They might know what that bracket does, but have no idea what the component it's attached to does.

iceracer wrote: How many times have I said/thought ? "Must have been designed by an engineer."

Probably about 1/4th the number of times as I've said "damn, I" wish they hired an engineer to build this" instead of a bean counter.

DrBoost wrote: They might know what that bracket does, but have no idea what the component it's attached to does.

Agreed. My machine design teacher once spent 6 months working on a 6"-ish diameter pinion for some automated material mover for around a plant. Or the story I related in some other post about a car launch and some people left hanging around to see their year worth of work on a simple throttle position sensor.

iceracer wrote: How many times have I said/thought ? "Must have been designed by an engineer."

When I first got invloved with Formula SAE, I was working on the teams car from the previous year. I was changing the oil and there was a frame tube placed where it made it really difficult to refill. I started to say "What the #@$% was were they thinking when they designed this thing." Then I realized the designer was in the next room. So instead I said, "HEY ROB! What the @#$% were you thinking when you designed this thing?" I got an explanation that invloved mass and torsional rigidity. So I said, "Great! Why don't you do all the oil changes from now on?" He smiled and responded with with, "I did my share of oil changes last year. The oil, coolant, spark plugs and valves will be much easier to reach in the new car."

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

iceracer wrote: How many times have I said/thought ? "Must have been designed by an engineer."

Probably about 1/4th the number of times as I've said "damn, I" wish they hired an engineer to build this" instead of a bean counter.

I got a nasty look from the plant engineer when I said that.

I've worked with many design engineers, as an engineer myself. Life is fine when those design engineers have grease under their nails. Many times though, they don't. And you get some mighty interesting products as a result.

Working in the test labs as a test engineer was also interesting in its own right. But, it was also interesting the number of design engineers that wanted nothing to do with the testing of their products. As opposed to those design engineers that were in the test labs with us. Can you guess which design engineers generally designed a better product?

Accountants never had anything to do with the design. Ever. They would be part of the choice to use cheap bolts, not the selection of bolt size or head type. They might order some junk plastic powder for the molding, but had nothing to do with the wall thickness or fastener location.

foxtrapper wrote: I've worked with many design engineers, as an engineer myself. Life is fine when those design engineers have grease under their nails. Many times though, they don't. And you get some mighty interesting products as a result.

THIS +10000! It is why I like to build the prototype after I have designed it cause if I can't put it together then how can I expect anyone else to?

Wait, your friend bought a $400 car and you are shocked it needed work?

foxtrapper wrote: I've worked with many design engineers, as an engineer myself. Life is fine when those design engineers have grease under their nails. Many times though, they don't. And you get some mighty interesting products as a result.

Many years ago I worked for a company that made specialty transformers and other magnetic windings. Sometimes they used me in the prototype department. One day the lead engineer handed me a blueprint for a large torriod winding (ring shaped core). I tried several times to make it exactly as it was in the drawing, but it just wouldn't come out right. Then I realized what was wrong, the blueprint was like an M C Escher drawing, it was impossible to construct exactly as drawn. It took the engineer a while to wrap his brain around that one.