Just did something monumentally stupid (home wiring)

In reply to Toyman01 :

I have to agree. Almost all threads on this forum have people who know more about one subject than others. Usually, our folks who know more help guide those who know less in a friendly way, not assuming anything about the peoplw who know less.

In this thread, we seem to instead be favoring admonishing those who know less, without giving reason or explaining why wrong is wrong.

I'll start: ground is only connected to neutral at one single spot in a house becauae there should never be current flowing over ground unless there is a failure. Ground connected to neutral in two spots means current that should flow over the nuetral could instead go around on the ground wires.

If you are going to use the heater as a junction box (which isn't code compliant) disconnect the heater wiring and  splice the thermostat wiring in it's box. Then switch the breaker to a single pole 15 amp breaker as the #14 wire is not rated  to carry 20 amps. Also SJO is not rated for use inside walls or permanent wiring, it is for making an extension cord or something that will be connected with a cord cap. The best thing to do at this point is run a separate circuit for your light and plug or tap off a 15 amp circuit that is lightly loaded.  Be careful please, you have been lucky so far.

Robbie said:

In reply to Toyman01 :

I have to agree. Almost all threads on this forum have people who know more about one subject than others. Usually, our folks who know more help guide those who know less in a friendly way, not assuming anything about the peoplw who know less.

In this thread, we seem to instead be favoring admonishing those who know less, without giving reason or explaining why wrong is wrong.

I'll start: ground is only connected to neutral at one single spot in a house becauae there should never be current flowing over ground unless there is a failure. Ground connected to neutral in two spots means current that should flow over the nuetral could instead go around on the ground wires.

It's not admonishing, it's telling people who don't know what they're doing that they're going to hurt themselves or others by doing something that they're not qualified to do  I'll say it again  wiring is not a hobby. Telling someone otherwise is dangerous  People train for years to become qualified to do this stuff and then some guy on a forum tells him to do something that could burn down his house  or someone else's house after he sells it someday  Not a good idea in my opinion. 

Mazdax605 said:

Robbie said:

In reply to Toyman01 :

I have to agree. Almost all threads on this forum have people who know more about one subject than others. Usually, our folks who know more help guide those who know less in a friendly way, not assuming anything about the peoplw who know less.

In this thread, we seem to instead be favoring admonishing those who know less, without giving reason or explaining why wrong is wrong.

I'll start: ground is only connected to neutral at one single spot in a house becauae there should never be current flowing over ground unless there is a failure. Ground connected to neutral in two spots means current that should flow over the nuetral could instead go around on the ground wires.

It's not admonishing, it's telling people who don't know what they're doing that they're going to hurt themselves or others by doing something that they're not qualified to do  I'll say it again  wiring is not a hobby. Telling someone otherwise is dangerous  People train for years to become qualified to do this stuff and then some guy on a forum tells him to do something that could burn down his house  or someone else's house after he sells it someday  Not a good idea in my opinion. 

Sooooooo, let me Google that for you.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/admonishing

1. to caution, advise, or counsel against something.

imgon said:

If you are going to use the heater as a junction box (which isn't code compliant) disconnect the heater wiring and  splice the thermostat wiring in it's box. Then switch the breaker to a single pole 15 amp breaker as the #14 wire is not rated  to carry 20 amps. Also SJO is not rated for use inside walls or permanent wiring, it is for making an extension cord or something that will be connected with a cord cap. The best thing to do at this point is run a separate circuit for your light and plug or tap off a 15 amp circuit that is lightly loaded.  Be careful please, you have been lucky so far.

 

I know it's not code compliant.  The correct way to do it is to move the Romex 3" to the right and use a box to split into two runs... which I can do, (and might) but likely won't unless I want to use that box for a duplex.

The SJO runs for 4" through conduit in the wall between the switch box inside and the duplex box outside, so I won't lose sleep over it.  The "kosher" option is to run 4" of THHN from the switch out to the outside box and then connect the lights there... which just adds more wire nuts which adds more failure points.

Both of the above are situations where I understand and respect code, but it actually adds complexity and failure points that are superfluous.

The plan at this point is to look at how much crawling I can do in the crawlspace to run another circuit.  If I can do the crawling, I'll undo everything I did in the heater box (returning that part to original) and instead run new Romex to a box right beside it where I can tie into all the work I just did.

I won't tap off one leg of a 240v circuit.  I won't pull a leg off one side of a 2-pole breaker.  Don't worry.  I actually know what I'm doing.  Except for the part where I massively berkeleyed up and forgot to know what I was doing.  Ya know.. the whole beginning part why I started the thread about doing something stupid 

jj said:

Is this just for lights?

TL;DR.... It was a circuit that I thought was 120v on 12/2 with a 20A breaker.  The only load on it was a 3A heater.  I thought I could add a 15A outlet and a max of 40w of lights and be perfectly safe, until I learned it was a 240v circuit and I berkeleyed up.  Now I have to run a new circuit.

SVreX said:

Threads like this could kill someone.

Good job, Curtis.

Thanks, brother.  I'll get it done right, it will just involve a lot of cursing and crawling around in the dirt under my house with an auger bit, a hammer, and NM staples

Cooter said:

You aren't completely clear here, but if you are keeping the baseboard heater, you need to pull another circuit.  

If not, buy a new breaker and then do as Ian F mentioned.  NEVER use the ground as a neutral.  It's a good way to get someone hurt.

Unforchinitly in the early 60s in MA it was common to wire home with ground and common connected to the same bar back in the box. My house is wired that way.  One big problem with it is some dimmers and timer switches don’t work correctly. I am considering having a electrician come in and revise my service bringing it up to current code.  

Don't worry.  I actually know what I'm doing.  Except for the part where I massively berkeleyed up and forgot to know what I was doing.

LOL. That is me right there!!!!!

In reply to Toyman01 :

I wasn't suggesting anything wrong with knowledge.  

I was noting (as Robbie did also) that THIS thread has a lot of misinformation and dangerous practices in it which are not identified as such.  That doesn't help anyone understand what they are dealing with.  It enables them to do it incorrectly.

Curtis is sorting through the stuff well.  That doesn't mean someone else reading this thread is also.

In reply to Curtis :

You are right about potential failure points in additional connections.  That's not why the code is written that way.  It is written that way to protect future people working on the system.

A future electrician or homeowner working on your home (perhaps long after you are gone) should have a reasonable expectation of certain things.  For example, they should expect that that grounds are not carrying current, and that someone hasn't branched a 120V circuit off a 220V, and that all junctions are made in boxes.  

Without these agreed-on expectations, it is dangerous to a person working on the system in the future. 

In reply to Curtis :I think I did something dumber.  

When I was building my house I had to tear the old house down as I went. ( I lived in what remained)  

Anyway the result was I had loose wires ( in armor-flex)  hanging down.  The left half of the circuit breaker is the front of the house, the right half was the rear of the house.  So all the breakers were out of the box on the part I was working on.  

Heavy pouring rain stopped my demolition  but I still needed to get work done so I was in the basement cleaning up debris.  Eventually the dangling conduit and armor-flex got in my way so I grabbed my wire cutters.  

Yep a circuit  had been back fed  and I was holding a  live 220 circuit and all metal wire cutter.  Luckily the rain was pouring down and I was standing on a metal drain covering. Reaching on my tip toes.  

I now understand what it means when electricity grabs ahold of you!  Frozen, I couldn’t move!  Until finally I was able to unlock my knee and fall to the ground.  

Luckily the internal resistance was greater than the resistance of the water pouring down my body. Otherwise I was frozen on that wire long enough to cook my insides.  

In reply to SVreX :

Agreed. There is some questionable info in here. But it's getting sorted and in the end the correct info is out for everyone to read. 

The automatic assumption that anything electrical is inherently dangerous and causes instant death, is in itself misinformation. It's a system, just like brakes, or fuel on a car, and honestly no more dangerous. When someone has a brake issue we don't immediately tell them to call a pro before they kill themselves. We help guide them through the proper way to diagnose and repair the issue. We should be willing to do the same with any system. There are more than enough people on here that have the knowledge. We should be willing and able to share it.

In reply to Toyman01 :

Selling to the housing industry I spent plenty of hours with electrians  learning not only the right way but also safe shortcuts, reasons things are done a certain way and what tools and components are best.  

Still didn’t keep me from a near fatal mistake.  Heck I knew everything in the back of the house was dead. I could look right into the breaker box and see the missing breakers.  

How was I to know a lazy electrician pulled a leg off 220 and effectively back fed it into what should have been a dead circuit. 

Was it a electrician that swapped wires or just the home owner doing a monkey see monkey do repair and crossing the wires turning a 120 circuit into a 240 circuit?   

It doesn’t matter. I’m the one who tried to cut the circuit before testing to ensure it was dead. Sad thing is I’d randomly checked a couple as I pulled the breakers. Just not all of them. 

At least I learned my lesson, there is a circuit tester in my pocket any time my wire cutters are.  

A properly made splice should never be a possible point of failure. This is one of my pet peeves as an electrician.  Use your Kliens to make a mechanical splice that won't pull apart, and then screw your wire nut on. 

As for electrical work being as safe as roofing or plumbing, I've never seen a man's heart stop from touching a roof. 

Is there some sort of 2:1 transformer that you could use which would be code compliant?

MadScientistMatt said:

Is there some sort of 2:1 transformer that you could use which would be code compliant?

Only if I wanted to disconnect the heater.  If it were a 120v circuit, I would be well within amperage ratings of the conductor and the breaker.  Since it is a 2-pole breaker, I would be pulling amperage from one pole to add my circuit.  If I overload that pole, it would have to trip both sides of the breaker which is not proper circuit protection.

In actual function, that is simply a backup heater that has never been needed, but the possibility exists that if I go away, leave the lights on, and the furnace fails, that heater will kick on and that is the situation in which improper protection would be a problem.

If it were two single pole breakers with a tie-bar on the throws, I could theoretically pull the tie bar off and protect the added circuit at the expense of compromising the heater.  If one side blows and the heater tries to draw amperage through the active pole, its a problem.

TL;DR... no point when I could just move the white in the panel to the neutral bar and put a single pole breaker in its place

Toyman01 said:

In reply to SVreX :

Agreed. There is some questionable info in here. But it's getting sorted and in the end the correct info is out for everyone to read. 

The automatic assumption that anything electrical is inherently dangerous and causes instant death, is in itself misinformation. It's a system, just like brakes, or fuel on a car, and honestly no more dangerous. When someone has a brake issue we don't immediately tell them to call a pro before they kill themselves. We help guide them through the proper way to diagnose and repair the issue. We should be willing to do the same with any system. There are more than enough people on here that have the knowledge. We should be willing and able to share it.

I agree. 

I certainly didn’t make an automatic assumption that anything electric is inherently dangerous. 

I said there were posts in this thread that were dangerous.