I have a retaining wall on one side of my driveway, made of railroad ties. They are getting kind of dirty and even moldy in some spots. I'd like to refresh them. I understand some may have creosote on/in them? Should I be hesitant to pressure-wash them? Is there a way of repainting/sealing/refinishing them in place rather easily?
These are probably untouched since the house was built in 2003.
Doubt they are true railroad ties, especially used ones.
True railroad ties will be creosote soaked, and generally tar covered. All shades of black, with greasy goo on them.
Landscaping ties on the other hand are simply pressure treated. These look clean when new, with a green or brownish tint. I suspect this is what you actually have. Today, they likely look grey and a bit like rotted wood.
In either case, pressure washing will clean them up. You can use some deck wash additive if you wish.
As for re-treating, most deck coats will work, and all will start to fail within a year or two.
All the ones I have are creosote soaked and tar covered. They are also much larger than landscaping ties. There's a few places that sell them used are us. Cheap enough to replace (usually $5 - $20 a piece)
I would not hestitate to pressure wash them, but that's just me. They likely are railroad cross ties, because that's what I see for sale around here. PT timbers are green to yellow and smaller than ties.
I need a couple of low retaining walls and want to know the best way to cut the railroad ties. Anybody?
^ Cut them with a chainsaw
I had a retaining wall built out of landscape 6x6's. They rotted out and the wall began to collapse. I now have a wall built from manufactured blocks. Its stout and not going anywhere. If you have good drainage the wood might be OK; I did not but I do now!
Pressure wash with cool or cold water just to get the dirt and dust off. You don't need high pressure.
Then coat with creosote if you can get it. Other wise look for coal tar pitch based wood preservative. It is a commercial product so you may have to do a bit of looking to find it. Re coat/saturate the rr ties. Be very liberal in your application. I typically apply it to the point of refusal.
Be carful to protect surrounding things as it is a sob to clean up and keep it off your skin it will burn. Fumes can cause eye irritation so use appropriate precautions when applying.
These are not green/yellow, and are not landscaping ties. Very dark, and quite large by comparison. Maybe not true used railroad ties, but the same idea. Much more irregular surface than PT lumber also.
I do not want to coat with creosote... it is a toxic substance (and I believe illegal now anyway). What is a modern safer alternative?
It is not illegal it is just not a happy homeowner product you can get at homedepo anymore. It is only toxic if you bath in it. But thanks to the general public not having much common sense it is a restricted product.
I happen to like the smell of it but I am weird that way. Some people can not stand it.
I think there are stains out there that are compatible with it. I would look at the Sherman Williams web site or stop in one of there stores and see if they have something.
When we were building the new race track here, somebody, either the insurance company, or the municipality or whoever else has power was quite vocal about the use of railroad ties for our various outbuildings. Do not use them or we will do something bad to you.
I have seen the creation of RR Ties, the are not "coated" or "soaked" in creosote, they are more like infused with the stuff. Imagine steam and heat and pressure in a big pressure vessel. Nasty stuff, but man do the ties last!
I have retaining walls made out of true RR ties and have replaced the top course. (most open to the elements) There is a place in Pittsburgh that sells them, so I imagine most other larger cities will have a place too. Mine is a gun shop/forklift repair/garage/RR tie shop.
Because of EPA you can only pressure treat stuff with creosote now, no more brushing or spraying. Plus, you aren't likley going to find it anywhere.
Creosote is some interesting stuff and has had a lot of varied uses inclduing medicinal use. But that may be more coal tar.
BTW the largest creosoting plant in the US at one time was in the Sigsbee area of Spartanburg County. They closed it because the equipment was old and too expensive to update. That land is undergoing remediation and will probably never be sold.
dean1484 wrote: It is not illegal it is just not a happy homeowner product you can get at homedepo anymore. It is only toxic if you bath in it. But thanks to the general public not having much common sense it is a restricted product.
If you say so...
The EPA website says:
There are no approved uses of creosote to treat wood for residential use.
FYI
foxtrapper wrote: Doubt they are true railroad ties, especially used ones.
Why do you doubt that?
Used railroad ties are VERY easily accessible in virtually any quantity where I live.
FWIW, this is what I'm talking about:
SVreX wrote:foxtrapper wrote: Doubt they are true railroad ties, especially used ones.Why do you doubt that? Used railroad ties are VERY easily accessible in virtually any quantity where I live.
Because of the build date. Because of the then existing federal ban on creosote timbers in residential construction. Because of the then existing cessation of sale of creosote to the public for beush on application.
ProDarwin wrote: FWIW, this is what I'm talking about:
Those are not railroad ties. They don't look to be large enough and are definitely the wrong color for treated railroad ties.
I got some used railroad ties to make a small retaining wall in our backyard when we bought the house in 1976. Last year they had finally deteriorated to the point I replaced them with a brick wall.
They were a dark brown/black color when I bought them and were the same color when I took them up.
ProDarwin wrote: FWIW, this is what I'm talking about:
Those are the type of landscaping timbers one buys at commercial landscaping pkaces around here. Not the likes of home depot. I see no sign of creosote treatment, which is as i expected. If you want a dark preservation that looks creosote like, you might try rustolium creocote
I think they are supposed to be dark brown/back (like the upper left of the first image). They are just faded from being in the sun for 12+ years and have mold/dirt on them.
So, regardless of what they are, what's the recommendation for something to coat them with to make them look good/refresh/protect/etc. ? Just the deck-over type stuff?
foxtrapper wrote:SVreX wrote:Because of the build date. Because of the then existing federal ban on creosote timbers in residential construction. Because of the then existing cessation of sale of creosote to the public for beush on application.foxtrapper wrote: Doubt they are true railroad ties, especially used ones.Why do you doubt that? Used railroad ties are VERY easily accessible in virtually any quantity where I live.
Creosote is banned for residential purposes. Used railroad ties are not, and never were, including in CA.
Don't make it scary. Think of the children.
SVreX wrote: Creosote is banned for residential purposes. Used railroad ties are not, and never were, including in CA. Don't make it scary. Think of the children.
The ban is on creosote wood in residential construction, there is no exemption for the creosote soaked woods of used railroad ties. Not even in California. That, in part, is why I strongly suspected his timbers were not railroad ties.
Used railroad ties are generally in poor shape, which makes it further unlikely to have been used in new residential construction. That is the reason I especially doubted they were used railroad ties.
Not to say that individual businesses or persons will not construct with real creosote soaked railroad ties, used or otherwise. That does not mean it is good work or legal. Just that it does, in fact, happen.
Remember too, all used railroad ties are the property of the railroad, to be disposed of as they see fit. Sometimes they will sell them, but many times they are simply being stolen from their stockpiles. The same thing happens to their stockpiles of new railroad ties.
The deck-coat stuff is pretty good stuff, it's worth a shot at least. But you will have a slightly-orange wall.
foxtrapper wrote:SVreX wrote: Creosote is banned for residential purposes. Used railroad ties are not, and never were, including in CA. Don't make it scary. Think of the children.The ban is on creosote wood in residential construction, there is no exemption for the creosote soaked woods of used railroad ties. Not even in California. That, in part, is why I strongly suspected his timbers were not railroad ties. Used railroad ties are generally in poor shape, which makes it further unlikely to have been used in new residential construction. That is the reason I especially doubted they were used railroad ties. Not to say that individual businesses or persons will not construct with real creosote soaked railroad ties, used or otherwise. That does not mean it is good work or legal. Just that it does, in fact, happen. Remember too, all used railroad ties are the property of the railroad, to be disposed of as they see fit. Sometimes they will sell them, but many times they are simply being stolen from their stockpiles. The same thing happens to their stockpiles of new railroad ties.
I am not trying to argue with you, but you are incorrect.
Creosote can not be used in residential applications. That means it can not be applied, nor sold for residential purposes. It also means it can't be used in construction.
But landscaping is NOT construction. Well, sometimes it is (when it is an application that requires a permit).
And homeowners are not licensed contractors, therefore not required to abide by licensed procedures.
A homeowner working under a building permit may not use them for construction. That means structural, retaining walls, erosion control requiring a permit, etc.
They CAN however utilize used materials for decorative purposes. This would include ties, pallets, reclaimed materials with lead paint, etc.
That's why you can buy the darned things online from Home Depot:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-Used-Railroad-Tie-Cresote-Treated-Common-7-in-x-9-in-x-8-ft-Actual-96-in-5100000070908000/100023488
Creosote is not banned. It CAN be used for industrial applications, and some commercial applications, but not farming (can't put them in proximity where an animal may lick them, or they can leach into the soil near food products).
Creosote soaked timbers which are hauled off as waste are hazardous waste, and must be disposed of accordingly. That means if the manifest says so. However, they can be hauled off as reclaimed materials without regard for hazards.
You are correct- the railroad generally owns the ties. But some leave their possession legally. For example, we do railroad maintenance, and are frequently asked to remove ties. Some contracts require us to dispose as waste. But some just require us to remove them, and they become our property as the demolition contractor.
This is not a black and white issue. Most people don't realize how many nuances there are to regulations like this. Same reason auto shops don't usually have a "Waste Oil" area (they have a "Reclaimed Oil", or a "Recovered Oil" area- motor oil is not a hazmat, waste oil is).
And absolutely NONE of this helps ProDarwin answer his question. Unfortunately, I can't help with that one (and apologize for contributing to the thread jack).
BTW, the simple way to identify a used RR tie is that it will have spike holes.
About 1' from the each end there will be a pair of imprints where the rail plates were sitting on each side of the rail, and 1 or 2 spike holes for each rail plate.
I don't see them in your pics, ProDarwin (but they would be on the top/ bottom 9" face).
Those are definitely pressure-treated timbers, not railroad ties. You can see the regular incisions about 3/4" long, about 1" apart. Those are cut into the wood to improve penetration of the preservative during pressure treatment. So the creosote issue is moot.
You should be able to treat those with anything you would use on any other form of wood.
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