Learn me: how to sleep

tester (Forum Supporter) said:

Hmm, thin, healthy guy not sleeping well, choking while sleeping, so bad he gets a CPAP machine... 

Can you breathe through your nose? 

Mike Rowe 

 

 

I always breathe through my nose, it doesn't matter, because I choke on my own tongue. I even breathe through my nose when I exercise at the gym. I didn't click on that link, but I believe I know the interview, Mike Rowe is pretty fun but I sort of given up on that podcast because his guests are overly simplistic.

ShawnG said:

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

Seems like everyone needs a cpap machine these days.

 

I'm not really sure what that's supposed to imply, it was night and day, after one use, I don't go anywhere without it. 

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

I play word association. It works very well to empty your mind. Start with a random letter and think of words that start with it. As soon as you run out go to another letter. I rarely get past more than three or four letters.

I have zero trouble going to sleep, it's just after 3:00 a.m. or so I'm completely restless, I'm not awake, but I'm not really getting sleep either.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

What age range are you Tuna? 

I can second not going too hard on melatonin; after ~15mg it has the opposite affects and keeps one awake.

Right now as a medical professional, I'm feeling this is a stress-related issue first THEN sleep quality. I like the idea of using phone apps to daily track things done to help you feel more accomplished- are you able to lower your daily stress in life more? Are you able to spend ~30 minutes or more reading before bed? I find if I do that I have no difficulties sleeping.

I'm 41. I've done the reading before bed, and now I do journaling before bed also, it doesn't matter at all. I still have zero trouble going to sleep, still can't get any good sleep after 3:00 a.m. or so.

procainestart said:

Podcasts have worked better for me than anything else. Cheap, low-profile earbuds that don't bother me, tho I usually only put one in. Meditation and heavy exercise haven't worked for me. The drugs I've taken suck. 

I usually listen to Stuff You Should Know - two guys who are friends, read some websites about a topic, and talk about it. Interesting but not always fascinating, and they have mellow voices. They put me right to sleep. 

Waking up in the middle of the night used to suck. Fire up a podcast and back to dreamland I go. It's my electronic Ambien. 

Again, I have zero trouble going to sleep, and I'm not waking up with my eyes open at 3:00 a.m., I'm just sleeping incredibly restlessly after that time roughly. 

tuna55 said:

ShawnG said:

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

Seems like everyone needs a cpap machine these days.

 

I'm not really sure what that's supposed to imply, it was night and day, after one use, I don't go anywhere without it. 

It's not a slight against you so please don't take it that way.

If it's helping you, that's great, keep it up

It's a me thing.

I feel like every time some issue comes along that might be solved by simpler methods, modern medicine shows up with a device or pill that will solve all of your woes. As long as you take / use it for the rest of your days.

Seems like treating a problem is more profitable than curing it and I can't fathom that humans are so badly designed that we can't manage sleeping and breathing at the same time.

Again, not a slight at you. I just don't understand how there isn't a better way than being plugged into a machine.

ShawnG said:

tuna55 said:

ShawnG said:

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

Seems like everyone needs a cpap machine these days.

 

I'm not really sure what that's supposed to imply, it was night and day, after one use, I don't go anywhere without it. 

It's not a slight against you so please don't take it that way.

If it's helping you, that's great, keep it up

It's a me thing.

I feel like every time some issue comes along that might be solved by simpler methods, modern medicine shows up with a device or pill that will solve all of your woes. As long as you take / use it for the rest of your days.

Seems like treating a problem is more profitable than curing it and I can't fathom that humans are so badly designed that we can't manage sleeping and breathing at the same time.

Again, not a slight at you. I just don't understand how there isn't a better way than being plugged into a machine.

No worries.

I've tried all the things short of dental implants, but no matter how hard I try, my tongue falls back into my mouth and my mouth falls open and I choke to myself nearly to death over and over again.

Went thru the whole thread. I didn't see anyone mention temperature. Sorry if I missed it.

I strongly prefer sleeping in a chilly to cold room, and with heavy blankets. I definitely sleep better in the winter. Have you tried varying the room temp and number of blankets to see what that does?

Another thing that I didn't see is to try different clothing setups. I prefer one complete layer, head to toe, including light socks and a knit cap - this seems to equalize my temperature all over, and that seems to help.

Stuff that others mentioned that works for me are melatonin (only helps a little, 5mg max, more gives me nightmares), ear plugs, eye shades / pitch black room, no caffeine after 2PM, a not-large, not-late healthy dinner, and no food or liquid after dinner.

Back when I was much more stressed (young kids and a sucky job) and could not get to sleep, I would simply lie in bed and count. I got well into the hundreds plenty of times.

In reply to Uncle David (Forum Supporter) :

HVAC is expensive. We keep ours around 77 at night. I sleep in undies with whatever covers feel right during the summer.

I was so tired that I fell asleep before bed yesterday. I went to bed super early, got 7 hours of bed-time in before the alarm for the gym, and it feel like half that. I was tossing and turning after 2-3. I have an appointment with the doc tomorrow to see if there's anything else they can do.

you know what helps me fall asleep?

reading comprehension.

ba-dum-tsss

Pop an indica RSO gummy, set your thermostat to 66 and rub one out. You'll be out like a light in somewhere between 35min and an hour 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

you know what helps me fall asleep?

reading comprehension.

ba-dum-tsss

Evidently we forgot to tell our young daughter to shut her eyes and go to sleep. Years later we found out that she would just lay in bed, stare at the ceiling and never fall asleep. Could that be your problem? 

tuna55 said:

In reply to Uncle David (Forum Supporter) :

HVAC is expensive. We keep ours around 77 at night. I sleep in undies with whatever covers feel right during the summer.

I'll chime in again here with another disclosure that I don't know what I'm talking about. 

Temperature is different for everyone but that's warm, for sure. I love the heat but I've really only ever been woken up feeling hot rather than feeling cold (aside from camping maybe). I'm also pretty sure I have this right in saying core temp drops to get to sleep and stay asleep and then starts to raise again in the morning to trigger the waking process. 

Maybe you're just getting too hot by 3AM even if you don't physically feel like you are.

Totally understand the comment about HVAC being expensive but trying it for a week may be worth the effort and if it cures it, may be worth the long-term cost. 

AxeHealey said:

tuna55 said:

In reply to Uncle David (Forum Supporter) :

HVAC is expensive. We keep ours around 77 at night. I sleep in undies with whatever covers feel right during the summer.

I'll chime in again here with another disclosure that I don't know what I'm talking about. 

Temperature is different for everyone but that's warm, for sure. I love the heat but I've really only ever been woken up feeling hot rather than feeling cold (aside from camping maybe). I'm also pretty sure I have this right in saying core temp drops to get to sleep and stay asleep and then starts to raise again in the morning to trigger the waking process. 

Maybe you're just getting too hot by 3AM even if you don't physically feel like you are.

Totally understand the comment about HVAC being expensive but trying it for a week may be worth the effort and if it cures it, may be worth the long-term cost. 

Well you hit the big nail that the doc hit. He says "I can put you to sleep, but I want to do some things before we try medication", and I am good with that. The two immediate changes are lower room temperature and taking the OTC allergy medicine in the morning.

I can't remember what you said about caffeine, but I've heard there's a delayed 2nd spike reaction to caffeine that happens hours after you first ingest it. Wondering out loud if that could be a factor, but I know that can hit everyone differently.

I love sleeping with a weighted blanket, but my wife will kill me if I do. Might be something worth trying.

dj06482 (Forum Supporter) said:

I can't remember what you said about caffeine, but I've heard there's a delayed 2nd spike reaction to caffeine that happens hours after you first ingest it. Wondering out loud if that could be a factor, but I know that can hit everyone differently.

I love sleeping with a weighted blanket, but my wife will kill me if I do. Might be something worth trying.

My last cup of coffee (of two) is around 11 AM generally.

tuna55 said:

dj06482 (Forum Supporter) said:

I can't remember what you said about caffeine, but I've heard there's a delayed 2nd spike reaction to caffeine that happens hours after you first ingest it. Wondering out loud if that could be a factor, but I know that can hit everyone differently.

I love sleeping with a weighted blanket, but my wife will kill me if I do. Might be something worth trying.

My last cup of coffee (of two) is around 11 AM generally.

The half-life of caffeine is 4-6 hours, so based on your timetable and ease of falling asleep, that's probably not it.

Tuna, I have a very similar situation.  I wake up around 1:30 to 3:30 and then can't get back to sleep because my mind is racing about completely unrelated (and usually unimportant) things.  They had me on a CPAP for a while but it didn't work very well.  Ended up having a "UPPP" surgery about 20 years ago which helped tremendously--dunno if that's something you might want to investigate with your doc.  

Still not sleeping

The things I would try: 

• Going to the doctor to have a full panel run, especially the endocrine panels. Make sure that you don't have some underlying issue that is messing things up. The first thing I'm thinking on this line of thought is a thyroid issue, but there could be a whole host of other things. 
• Cooler sleeping temp. If it is too expensive keeping the whole house cool, throw a window unit in the room. 
• Your bedroom needs to be for 2 things only. Get the guitars, workout equipment, desk, etc., out of there. Easier said than done, I know, because we can't all have an office and a guitar room and a workout room... But we're talking about your health here.
• Bigger bed. I've never met you in person, but I get the impression that neither of you get your height questioned when you ride rollercoasters. I am not joking when I say that the closest my wife and I have ever come to a separation coincided with the times that we shared either a full or queen bed. It was a night and day difference; within a week, it was like all of our problems disappeared. A king bed is literally 2 Twin XLs pushed together. If you were single, would you be sleeping in a twin bed? Assuming the answer is "no", Then why are you sleeping in an even narrower bed right now?
• CBD, without THC

Now the things I'm hesitant to suggest, but will throw them out there: 

• I'm hesitant to post this here, because I think posts like this lead to internet diagnoses and one of the best examples of the Dunning-Krueger effect that I can think of, but....   Any chance you have ADHD? ADHD can cause all sorts of sleep issues. Obviously, if you suspect this, ask your doctor for a referal to neurology. Your issues sound a lot like my dad's issues with sleep, and with each passing year, I am seeing more and more of them myself. I was just diagnosed with ADHD, at 33 years old. And so much stuff in my life that didn't quite make sense, totally makes sense now.  And in hindsight, I'm about 95% certain that my dad also has ADHD. 
• CBD:THC gummy. 2:1 or higher. My wife uses a 4:1 gummy when her depression and anxiety are too much, just so she can get some sleep (her issues are hormonal, and we can't really do anything about treating the source so we have to use a bandaid). Make sure it is an indica, but basically anything with 2:1 or greater CBD to THC will be an indica. I'm not getting into the legality issues here, but if you can't procure any, you have friends that can help you.
  • To give you an example, my dad - who again, has very similar issues to what you've described, where he'll wake up sometime between 3 and 5AM, and is not rested but cannot go to sleep and the wheels are churning in his brain and won't stop - has taken them a few times. Each time he says he doesn't feel anything from it, he's wondering what the point was and it was a waste of money. I then ask him how many times he got up to pee in the middle of the night, and each time, he'll say, "only once, at 7AM". Huh. Hey, dad, maybe it is doing you some good here. 
  • The only reason I don't use it regularly is because I'm searching for a job. As it is, I have been using it regularly over the past 2 weeks. I've weaned off of my antidepressant (treating the wrong core issue!). The withdrawal would have me so restless, I would go downstairs and punch a pillow for about 5 minutes then walk the dog, at 2AM, then play guitar, just because the withdrawal symptoms were making it impossible for me to be near someone who was trying to sleep. When I take the gummy, I'm out like a light, and wake up rested the next day. I personally would be concerned about dependency on it, but I'd be more concerned about the long term impacts of not sleeping.
  • What would Jesus do? Seriously, look at the area of the globe that Jesus lived in. I'll stop there so this doesn't become a theological discussion that I personally am not spiritually prepared for. 

Edit at 11AM Central, rewarded the ADHD bullet for better clarity. 

In reply to mtn :

The things I would try: 

• Going to the doctor to have a full panel run, especially the endocrine panels. Make sure that you don't have some underlying issue that is messing things up. The first thing I'm thinking on this line of thought is a thyroid issue, but there could be a whole host of other things. 

Went. I have recent (and extensive) bloodwork with the same office. They didn't suggest any new bloodwork.

• Cooler sleeping temp. If it is too expensive keeping the whole house cool, throw a window unit in the room. 

Did it. Made no difference but the kids complained less.

• Your bedroom needs to be for 2 things only. Get the guitars, workout equipment, desk, etc., out of there. Easier said than done, I know, because we can't all have an office and a guitar room and a workout room... But we're talking about your health here.

Can't really be done.

• Bigger bed. I've never met you in person, but I get the impression that neither of you get your height questioned when you ride rollercoasters. I am not joking when I say that the closest my wife and I have ever come to a separation coincided with the times that we shared either a full or queen bed. It was a night and day difference; within a week, it was like all of our problems disappeared. A king bed is literally 2 Twin XLs pushed together. If you were single, would you be sleeping in a twin bed? Assuming the answer is "no", Then why are you sleeping in an even narrower bed right now?

Yes, I was sleeping in a twin prior to marriage. The bed is a very nice king latex job customizable for stiffness on a custom built frame I made which tilts the bed up at the head for Tunawife's esophagus issues. It's not going anywhere.

• CBD, without THC

Pass

Now the things I'm hesitant to suggest, but will throw them out there: 

• Any chance you have ADHD? ADHD can cause all sorts of sleep issues. Obviously, if you suspect this, ask your doctor for a referal to neurology. I'm hesitant to post this here for what I hope are obvious reasons, but your issues sound a lot like my dad's issues with sleep, and with each passing year, I am seeing more and more of them myself. I was just diagnosed with ADHD, at 33 years old. And so much stuff in my life that didn't quite make sense, totally makes sense now.  And in hindsight, I'm about 95% certain that my dad also has ADHD. 

Yes of course I have ADHD. Here's what ADHD sleep issues looked like for 17  year old tired Tuna: I go to sleep, dark room, fan on, right at ten. At 3 AM I am sitting straight up, mind wide open, never slept, been busy thinking through EVERYTHING with no memory of what happened for the past five hours.

• CBD:THC gummy. 2:1 or higher. My wife uses a 4:1 gummy when her depression and anxiety are too much, just so she can get some sleep (her issues are hormonal, and we can't really do anything about treating the source so we have to use a bandaid). Make sure it is an indica, but basically anything with 2:1 or greater CBD to THC will be an indica. I'm not getting into the legality issues here, but if you can't procure any, you have friends that can help you.
  • To give you an example, my dad - who again, has very similar issues to what you've described, where he'll wake up sometime between 3 and 5AM, and is not rested but cannot go to sleep and the wheels are churning in his brain and won't stop - has taken them a few times. Each time he says he doesn't feel anything from it, he's wondering what the point was and it was a waste of money. I then ask him how many times he got up to pee in the middle of the night, and each time, he'll say, "only once, at 7AM". Huh. Hey, dad, maybe it is doing you some good here. 
  • The only reason I don't use it regularly is because I'm searching for a job. As it is, I have been using it regularly over the past 2 weeks. I've weaned off of my antidepressant (treating the wrong core issue!). The withdrawal would have me so restless, I would go downstairs and punch a pillow for about 5 minutes then walk the dog, at 2AM, then play guitar, just because the withdrawal symptoms were making it impossible for me to be near someone who was trying to sleep. When I take the gummy, I'm out like a light, and wake up rested the next day. I personally would be concerned about dependency on it, but I'd be more concerned about the long term impacts of not sleeping.
  • What would Jesus do? Seriously, look at the area of the globe that Jesus lived in. I'll stop there so this doesn't become a theological discussion that I personally am not spiritually prepared fo

Pass

Have you ever tried CBD?

...it didn't work for me (nor THC) but desperate times seem to merit desperate measures. 

In reply to tuna55 :

 He had major surgery to his septum and nasal cavities because he couldn't breathe. Couldn't sleep. Felt like he was choking to death. Woke up tired all the time, etc.  He had to retrain himself to breathe through his nose using an elastic band to keep his mouth shut during sleep. Worst case scenario is needing surgery to the tongue, sinuses,  etc.  

My suggestion: Try sleeping on a different bed or the couch. You mentioned a custom tilt on that bed frame. That can cause problems for some people.