This is relevant to my interests. Good to see some in the industry give insights, good to see differing opinions. Without derailing the whole thing, I really have a strong desire to build my own home with my own hands. I also am fascinated with the idea of building something that won't just outlast me, but will outlast further generations long past when my name is forgotten. Anyway, keep the discussion going, I'm loving it.
Hey dude. A few years ago I have moved to my farm as well. I have built a steel building, and it was ok. It was easy and relatively cheap. It's actuall very comfortable and has a nice design. Moreover, it it will last for a lot of years. As you can see, it has a lot of benefits, and I would say that it's a nice idea. I have also built a nice [canoe, which is] a nice play to live in ;)
SVreX said:In reply to frenchyd :
I’ve been in construction for 42 years, and built in several countries. Frenchy, I’ve never seen a house as overbuilt as yours. That’s a bit of a compliment.
Having said that, since there are very few houses built like yours, your house is not a good example. Sound and dust will absolutely travel through a normal house.
Its also a big fire risk. I don’t want my children sleeping in the same structure I weld in, or make sawdust in without adequate fire resistance. In my opinion, adequate fire resistance can NOT be achieved in wood framed structures using residential construction techniques.
I understand what you are saying and accept it in the manner I believe you meant. You are absolutely correct in that it is massively overbuilt.
However I honestly believe you are wrong with regard to fire protection. Here's why. Between tours to Vietnam The Navy had to find something for me to do. Since I had more hours and qualifications than the next two guys in my squadron they picked something way out in left bank. Fire fighting instructors course. It was fun and I learned a lot.
plus I get literature etc from the fire fighting industry.
One of the reasons I used hardwood timbers was the resistance to ignition timbers have. Grab a nice big smooth chunk of oak and try to get it to catch on fire with a match. You won't succeed. You will with pine, cedar, spruce etc. but not hardwood. Oak, Hackberry, Ironwood, Ash, Well you get my point, sorry.
It has to do with thermal mass and even if you could get it to ignite it would put itself out.
I've got a picture someplace of a nearby giant sized wood warehouse that caught on fire and burned all the siding and roof off. None of timbers were damaged enough to fail inspection by the city building inspector. They simply sandblasted the burn off and replaced the siding and roof.
Aside from that my firefighting course taught me that there are three things needed for a fire. Fuel, oxygen, and ignition temperature. A traditional stick built home is designed to catch on fire easily. Fiberglas insulation provides all the required oxygen. softwoods provide a low ignition temp source requirement and the fuel. Using SIP's denies oxygen and hardwood dramatically raises ignition temperature requirements.
the basement uses The 1 hour fire sheetrock. And ICF's both deny oxygen and surrounds solid rebar enforced concrete. On the outside is 2 inch thick granite.
In reply to frenchyd :
Again Frenchy, completely irrelevant.
Poopshovel is not gonna build a timber frame, nor a SIPs house. He’s gonna build something in keeping with typical construction techniques, as would most people ever reading this thread.
Your attached wood shop increases the fire risk to your timber framed structure. You make sawdust. That is not resistant to ignition like the timbers may be. (I won’t argue that point other than to say I have cleaned up the non-existent remains of several timber framed structures).
My comment about fire protection stands. An attached shop is an increased risk to ANY structure. Especially high risk to a wood framed residential structure.
I don’t want my kids sleeping in the same building I am welding in or creating sawdust.
what gauge steel are these buildings made from ?
I know some of the corrugated steel used for carports is pretty thin,
In reply to SVreX :
Welding and sawdust? You are right, terrible combination. Teach that person about shop vac and dust collectors.
OK but again some sites may not allow the room for both.
Homes on a sloop need a foundation. You can either pay someone else to put in that foundation or do it yourself with ICF's. Want a fireproof extremely efficient energy efficient house? Build it yourself out of ICF's
They are giant foam LEGO blocks you put rebar in. Spray foam in the joints to seal them, align them with the scaffolding then pour concrete into.
I had my back go out just before I started
My teenage daughter and her aunt who together had zero construction experience wound up doing it in one day.
Sometimes I think Frenchy is a conversational AI trained with a very odd dataset.
SVreX said:I don’t want my kids sleeping in the same building I am welding in or creating sawdust.
This is why Poopy needs to comment what he’d actually be doing in the shop. If it is building frames and framing/matting paintings/uniforms/etc, I’m not sure that your concerns are all that relevant. Or maybe it is, but every frame shop I’ve been in (2) have had apartments above them.
dculberson said:Sometimes I think Frenchy is a conversational AI trained with a very odd dataset.
The OP wants to build a home. He is concerned about the cost of A/C. Several have discussed the limitations of steel buildings ( including me ).
I've always been told listing a problem without a solution isn't right.
Stick building will just get him the same high A/C bills. Alternatives are called for.
My solution is ICF's. Without further explanation that's pretty useless. The ease of assembly ( with supervision) is unbelievable. As I said my teenage daughter and her aunt did a magnificent job in just one day.
With regard to cost, the low bid for that section's foundation work was $18,000. Figuring the cost of forms, rebar, scaffold rental, concrete, renting a pumper truck, renting a vibrator and hiring two bag boys from the local grocery store was $5700. I gimped around and explained to the boys what I wanted done and by noon we were cleaning up.
Prior to the pour I had the tech rep from the company that sold up the forms etc stop out and check our work. ( never having done this sort of thing before) Both the cement truck drivers and the pump operator guided us and gave us tips. ( It probably helped that I bought everything from the same source).
So the potential for energy savings is real and well documented. The ease of assembly can't be disputed. Plus the cost savings is significant.
My only question is why isn't it more popular?
SVreX said:In reply to frenchyd :
Again Frenchy, completely irrelevant.
Poopshovel is not gonna build a timber frame, nor a SIPs house. He’s gonna build something in keeping with typical construction techniques, as would most people ever reading this thread.
Your attached wood shop increases the fire risk to your timber framed structure. You make sawdust. That is not resistant to ignition like the timbers may be. (I won’t argue that point other than to say I have cleaned up the non-existent remains of several timber framed structures).
My comment about fire protection stands. An attached shop is an increased risk to ANY structure. Especially high risk to a wood framed residential structure.
I don’t want my kids sleeping in the same building I am welding in or creating sawdust.
You missed my point. Stick building isn't what the OP wants. He's concerned about the energy cost of A/C. You correctly pointed out the added cost of making a steel building energy efficient.
I offered ICF's but I suppose from a professional standpoint there is a problem with them?
I ask because I found them close to a 1/3 the cost of having a professional put a foundation in. Yet Only 3 house out of more than 100 around me are built using them since I put in mine.
In reply to frenchyd :
I think you missed the post from the OP on the previous page where he made it clear he intends to stick build, and is asking about an attached shop.
The original post in this thread is 2 1/2 years old.
In reply to SVreX :
I went back to his original negative statements about wood. I did miss the statement about ( Stick) So apparently his values have changed he no longer worries about rot or insects etc? Plus he's accepted higher A/C bills?
OK, fair enough, his choice. But why aren't more homes. being built with ICF's? Was I just lucky? Did I get a special deal? Is there something I've overlooked?
I suspect it's mostly inertia, contractors have stick built for so long they are reluctant to try something else?
In reply to frenchyd :
I won’t speak for the OP or for other contractors. You are welcome to poll as many people as you want.
My primary reason for not using them is cost. Despite what you assert, every single time I have priced out a job with ICFs the price has been significantly higher. An owner may reap the benefits of reduced energy costs, but I won’t. As a contractor, I’m not going to pay 40% more for a foundation unless the customer is willing to pay the difference. They are not.
EDIT: There are also engineering, code enforcement, and design reasons I don't use them, which vary job by job.
Here’s an article on the pros and cons of ICF’s. Note that it is written by an ICF advocacy group.
frenchyd said:
renting a vibrator and hiring two bag boys
I giggled.
In reply to Stampie :
The scary part is the kind of vibrator he is referring to is one of these industrial versions:
Yikes!
You might want an extra pair of hands to hold onto that bad boy!
I guess that’s what the bag boys are for!
And just like that, this thread flew off the rails.
Love it.
And it was Frenchy and SVReX who took it off the rails in THAT direction.
In reply to SVreX :
Then why did I save so much compared to the bids I got?
Or maybe better, simpler. What would a professional contractor charge charge for about 120 hours of labor?
The three bids were $22,000 $21,300 & $18,000
To the best of my recollection ( it was 20 years ago). I spent a little over $5700 to put in that part of the foundation.
If I was smart I would have gone over and asked how much the poured walls cost for the new house going in.
A side note, does anybody put a cement block wall in anymore? I can't remember the last one I saw installed. Maybe back in the 90's?
And thank god for that- Frenchy taught me about a foam construction I might be interested in AND an industrial vibrator that could shake your fillings out! I gotta find one, that'd be comedy gold!
mtn said:And it was Frenchy and SVReX who took it off the rails in THAT direction.
Stampie deserves some credit.
frenchyd said:In reply to SVreX :
Then why did I save so much compared to the bids I got?
Or maybe better, simpler. What would a professional contractor charge charge for about 120 hours of labor?
The three bids were $22,000 $21,300 & $18,000To the best of my recollection ( it was 20 years ago). I spent a little over $5700 to put in that part of the foundation.
If I was smart I would have gone over and asked how much the poured walls cost for the new house going in.
A side note, does anybody put a cement block wall in anymore? I can't remember the last one I saw installed. Maybe back in the 90's?
Do you HAVE to ALWAYS get the last word in? Have something else to say regardless of if it's germane to the topic at hand? Do you honestly, after years of being here and being banned before not get it?
Just doing my part to try the kill thread.
Frenchy, you saved so much because you did it yourself. For crying out loud.
Most people don't have 27 years to take building a house, or the skill, or the desire. So they pay someone to do it.
So much great information as well as hilarity in this thread.
And yeah, I keep saying "shop" assuming everyone knows what the hell I'm talking about.
I do high-end custom picture framing, and am selling my retail shop.
Like I said, I need to post a new thread.
SVREX: Good call on dust as a fire hazard.
Frenchy: You've raised some good points and provided some good info as well.
In reply to mtn :
That's understood. But it's more than that. Banks won't allow a lot of what I did so you have to figure out ways to do things without the banks.
I love the idea of ICF. In humidity land (termite and insect country) I am afraid of ICF.
If I was out in the country and owned some land, I'd very likely build a shop out of the inverted "half a corrugated steel pipe" with a sliding front wall.
https://www.americansteelspan.com/q-model-steel-building.html
Always wanted a big sliding door with a hinged man door in it, too.
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