No local subsidies. Zero. $30 minimum charge from the power company. Electric bills range from $110 to $250 pretty obviously following outside temperatures.
Everything I see is super scammy and high pressure. What are the experiences on cost? Damage? Lifespan?
Thanks
Last estimate I have from a friend local that did this:
13k system $24k
Tesla powerwall batery backup $11k
Install $7k
This is for a house using about 2500kWh/mo average.
I like the idea but without subsidies it is hard to justify with 0.125/kw hr prices.
I ideally really like this.
In practice, anything advertised with a payback in the 10s or 20s of years is hard for me to swallow. Any unpredicted maintenance or replacement - or heck, even a slight change to energy cost estimates - throws those models to the wolves.
I pay a few extra cents per kWh to buy energy from the local provider who sources the power from "clean sources" (which I think is mostly wind) instead.
Use significantly less power and you can get away with a much smaller system.
I've lived off grid for decades with a small system, we use 17kwh a month or close to it
From what I understand you'll pay anywhere between 50% - 100% in labor relative to parts. A 10kw system installed for $15,000 would be a screaming deal.
Typically you can find a local electrician who can guide you through the wiring end of things.
Lifespan is about 20 years (about matched to a roof).
ROI is 8-10 depending on self install or not.
Remote or Ground Mount is a big win. Panels last longer, roof lasts longer, easier to upgrade panels as technology improves. You can put the panels out in the sun and hide the house in the shade.
Battery backups only seems to save considerable money if your local power is expensive, or you can DIY build them cheap. I've read that if you can live off your battery backup overnight (if heating during winter or AC during summer), the ROI is really fast. Most people can't unless they have wood heat or don't use AC.
Even in the movies like Birdemic solar panels are scammy.
We installed a 16.4 kW system last winter. It's sized to produce 110% of our annual power needs, and we're using the grid as a backup battery - we get a 1 for 1 credit on surplus power. We're up about 250 kWh over the past month, our big usage season is midsummer.
Cost was 2/3 panels, 1/6 installation, 1/6 associated hardware (new panel, racking, wiring). The warranty is 25 years on the panels and inverters - newer systems like ours have an inverter for each panel, so it's more modular than having a big inverter for the whole (or a portion of) the array. I'm still setting up monitoring for individual panels so I can check the health of it all, but I've seen over 80% efficiency already. It's installed on the roof of my shop which is pretty much an ideal location, the only problem is a nearby cliff that provides early shade in the winter. By this time of year, the angle of the sun is low enough by the time the shadow hits that it doesn't really affect output.
It's worth noting that there have been remarkable improvements in lifespan, efficiency and cost of the arrays, so it's worth revisiting the pricing occasionally. It didn't make sense a few years ago for us, it does now.
The secret to making it work is the financing and the federal tax credit of 26%. We talked to a few companies and they all came up with similar specs in their quotes, the one we went with was slightly more expensive but it was offset by some financing with ridiculously low rates - someone's getting a subsidy from somewhere. Yeah, we'll be paying for it for a while but since we're already saving money, that's fine. It's highly unlikely the cost of delivered power ($0.099 kWh plus all the surcharges, I think the effective rate is $0.13 or so) will go down, we're expecting time of use charges in the next few years which will only tilt the finances in our favor. What we've done is lock in the cost of our power for the next quarter century.
Almost every house in our neighborhood sports panels now. The ridgeline on the shop points due north, by the way, so half of the array is biased towards the morning and the rest for the afternoon.
Keith, what did you pay for that?
Also, your 1x1 net metering sways it big time in your favor. ROI with that ability to sell back will be much faster.
Power company here pays for anything you put back into the grid. Still not worth it being in Chicago with relatively little roof space. If I took down a Maple tree, which I kind of want to do anyway, would likely help significantly.
I always come to the conclusion that it makes sense in almost any new build, but the numbers become much more difficult to make sense as an add-on.
I'll also say that the estimators online have little to do with reality when it comes to the install price, at least from the contractors I emailed.
Keith Tanner said:and we're using the grid as a backup battery
Can you explain the above? Does it mean you charge batteries using grid power or that you do not have batteries and use the grid when the panels are not producing power?
bobzilla said:Last estimate I have from a friend local that did this:
13k system $24k
Tesla powerwall batery backup $11k
Install $7k
This is for a house using about 2500kWh/mo average.
2500 kwh/mo average? That has to be a huge house with a lot of people and electronics. Just for the heck of it, I looked up our usage.
In August of last year, which in Oklahoma means the AC is running 22 hours a day, for the month we barely hit 2000 kwh for just that month. That's with 2 people working from home in an 1800 sq ft home with 15ft + ceilings.
Basically, the utility gives me 1 kWh of credit for every kWh I feed into the grid. In the daytime, I'm a power generator. At night, I suckle at the teat of Big Electricity like everyone else - but I don't pay for it until I exceed what I've generated. Since the array is sized at 110% of annual usage, I should never have to pay. I don't get paid for over-generating and I can't transfer the banked power, which is why the array isn't any bigger than it is.
Optionally, I could have had the utility pay me for the power and take that off my bill, but they pay wholesale prices so I'm basically competing with hydroelectric dams and windmills and coal plants. It's pennies.
So yeah, not really a backup battery because I lose power when the grid goes down - without a 120v signal from the grid, the panels don't wake up. So just a load balacing battery. I might do a backup battery using old EV packs just for fun but not out of any need.
pheller, the total bill before tax credits was about $60k. $16k (rough numbers) immediately came back on my taxes, I'll have that in my bank account shortly I actually got a free upgrade from 345W panels to the latest 400W due to supply constraints, which is nice.
The fact that it was a retrofit vs a new installation didn't really affect the cost much. But the fact that I had 1200 square feet of steel roof with no shade sure helped. A more urban coworker had solar installed by the same company and he hasn't been as happy because he's surrounded by big trees and his roof is fairly small. Other than that cliff, we are pretty much an ideal case.
FYI, we average 2000 kWh/mo. Most of that is due to the air conditioning in my metal shop in the summer - solar gain like you would not believe. I'm actually hoping the panels will cool it down a bit by shading the roof.
In reply to z31maniac :
It's a 5br, 4ba 2 story, 5 people, 3 kids.
Our house we average about 1500-2000 per month. 3bd/2ba, single story on the frozen tundra of the plains of Indiana total electric(heat, AC, stove, well etc).
bobzilla said:In reply to z31maniac :
It's a 5br, 4ba 2 story, 5 people, 3 kids.
Our house we average about 1500-2000 per month. 3bd/2ba, single story on the frozen tundra of the plains of Indiana total electric(heat, AC, stove, well etc).
Ahh, the all electric is a big difference. Our water heater and heat are natural gas.
In reply to tuna55 :
You are right, the solar salesmen of today were the siding salesman of old. As a lender I see all kinds of expense and issues when it's time to sell your home. There's liens and grants to deal with and it delays closings at least 2 weeks and I've seen it delay them 2 months. It also adds thousands of dollars to your closing costs.
If you pay cash you don't have to worry about that but you still have issues when it's time to sell because in most parts of the country it's not a big plus, it's viewed as a fad so you limit your buyer pool.
Solar will get there and in concept it has merit, but like electric cars the systems aren't really perfected enough yet, but if no one buys them then there's no pressure to invent better wheels.
I've dealt with hundreds of sellers and not one has said they'd do it again.
z31maniac said:bobzilla said:In reply to z31maniac :
It's a 5br, 4ba 2 story, 5 people, 3 kids.
Our house we average about 1500-2000 per month. 3bd/2ba, single story on the frozen tundra of the plains of Indiana total electric(heat, AC, stove, well etc).
Ahh, the all electric is a big difference. Our water heater and heat are natural gas.
Not an option when you're rural. We could go propane but those costs, at least local historically, were always more than electric. Plus you have to deal with trucks getting to your tank, yearly contracts etc.
I'll ask some of my Realtor(TM) friends if they view it as a plus when it comes to sell and what effect they've seen it have on closings. I wouldn't have done it if I was planning on selling anytime soon just due to the extra complexity.
Not all the vendors are fly-by-night siding salesmen. The company I dealt with has been around for 17 years. One of the others that quoted has been here for 40. There's no grant and no lien on the house involved, although I am interested in how the actual sale would work. I suppose, at worst, I could take my panels with me :)
The math works differently today than it did a decade ago, and it'll work differently in a decade when the panels are less expensive and more efficient yet.
The last time I got an estimate, it was the last working day of 2018 so the three hour process felt like it took forever. Anyway, the monthly estimated savings came to $36. 
This was for the type of arrangement where you're leasing your roof to the company so there was no way in hell I'd turn over any level of control of my home for $432 per year.
BTW, we are friends with two realtors and they both said the lease arrangement significantly reduces the value of your home and the owned out-right arrangement is hit and miss (i.e. like a pool where some want it and others don't.)
The company did also offer an own out-right option but when I factored in the opportunity cost (i.e. $25,000 X 10.5% average stock market return), it was a major money loser.
So, do it to help the environment, do it to be independent, do it to lock in your costs but at the time and location (2018 and California) it was not a good deal.
bobzilla said:z31maniac said:bobzilla said:In reply to z31maniac :
It's a 5br, 4ba 2 story, 5 people, 3 kids.
Our house we average about 1500-2000 per month. 3bd/2ba, single story on the frozen tundra of the plains of Indiana total electric(heat, AC, stove, well etc).
Ahh, the all electric is a big difference. Our water heater and heat are natural gas.
Not an option when you're rural. We could go propane but those costs, at least local historically, were always more than electric. Plus you have to deal with trucks getting to your tank, yearly contracts etc.
Oh I get it, I was just saying I understand the usage now. I wonder what our electricity usage would look like with our abnormally cold end of winter (if we were all electric).
We've had snow 3 times in the last month, when typically the last 20 years we may have snow 1-2 times all of winter.
In reply to bobzilla :
Some places in central Illinois actually have methane wells on their property and heat the house off of it. These are also areas where it isn't uncommon to be able to light your water on fire.
In reply to tuna55 :
There are tons of variables to consider. The big two are your cost of electricity and amount of use. You need that info to decide if solar makes sense for you. Then you need to see how friendly you local provider is with solar. Net metering is a must for any financial payback. Batteries will never be cheaper than the grid if you already have access to the grid. If you have a tiered rate system, and frequently go into the upper tiers, then the first panels you install will have a greater payback, which drops as you add more panels to knock out the lower tiers. The closer you try to get to 100% offset, the longer your payback. Most systems are sized in the 85-90% range to balance payback with system life savings, but that can vary by area. Once you know how much solar you need, you need to figure out how much your roof can support. Some houses lack good roof space, some have space to spare. If you are roof space limited roof space, you need to decide between higher producing modules (more expensive) or limiting the size of your system (quicker payback but less ROI over the life of the system.)
Battery backup is expensive, in most cases a backup generator is much more cost effective. The exception is if your provider does time of use charges. The battery will store the cheaper daytime energy that your solar generates, and let you use it during the peak time. You do need to check into time of use, as it can diminish a good chunk of the saving of solar. If from noon to 4pm you are at work and feeding $.15kWh power to the grid but they are charging you $.30kWh in the evening, you lost a good chunk of your production.
As for installers. Many of the salesman don't work for companies that are directly installing solar. They are sales and financing companies, just like car dealerships don't build the cars they sell. Some are good, some aren't. They subcontract to the installer. You might get a good one, you might not. I'd prefer a local installer that has been around a while. They sell mostly by word of mouth, or you need to go to them. They don't usually have guys knocking on doors.
I saw this thread and thought, maybe I should check into solar again before the rebates expire.
I just looked at the bill, and we only use an average of 740kWh/month. This month for 598kWh, for a bill of $82, so I'm not optimistic that the math would really make sense.
Looking at some of the usage in this thread makes me think I don't need to follow the kids around turning off lights.
Our local utility is municipally owned, and our electric rates are the most expensive in the state, in spite of our city/county being very small by comparison. And it's only getting worse, as the city depends on a massive transfer from the utility to the city's general fund. We live in a house built in 1937 but we've updated windows, insulation and HVAC. The house has no gas service, so everything is electric. Three adults (my dad lives in our apartment) plus a high school junior. We are not sure if we'll live here long term. I pasted a screenshot of our most recent bill below. I'd welcome thoughts about adding at least a partial solar system. The comment above about taking the higher cost usage tier out of the picture is what got me thinking.
I do believe that the bigger arrays are more economical due to the fixed cost of hooking up to the grid - that's a much smaller percentage on a big array. And I'd definitely take a local long-term installer over some rando who walked up the driveway. We contacted everyone who came to us for a quote, not the other way around.
Since most of our driving is the EV, the array provides not only our house electricity but also our fuel. That's looking better and better right now :) If I'm doing the math right, about 10% of our average useage is the car.
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