Legality of replica cars

In reply to ShawnG :

Ha... today I learned....

wearymicrobe said:

As for why would would want a fake. Well its easy for me, even if I had the money for a original 550 spyder I would never drive it on the street or track. You are in full caretaker mode on a car like that.

Same reason I have a fake Lotus Super 7. Even if I could justify the cost to purchase a real Lotus or a Caterham, I'd be too afraid to drive it. As it is, my Locost cost $5700 to build ($4000 US dollars), and while it cost 1/10th the price of a real one, it's not 1/10th the car.

I'm also a big fan of building a Hemi Cuda out of a slant 6 Cuda.  Or a "fake" Boss 302 Mustang.  Or an SS396 Chevelle out of a base Chevelle. You'd be less afraid of driving it.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

wearymicrobe said:

As for why would would want a fake. Well its easy for me, even if I had the money for a original 550 spyder I would never drive it on the street or track. You are in full caretaker mode on a car like that.

Same reason I have a fake Lotus Super 7. Even if I could justify the cost to purchase a real Lotus or a Caterham, I'd be too afraid to drive it. As it is, my Locost cost $5700 to build ($4000 US dollars), and while it cost 1/10th the price of a real one, it's not 1/10th the car.

I'm also a big fan of building a Hemi Cuda out of a slant 6 Cuda.  Or a "fake" Boss 302 Mustang.  Or an SS396 Chevelle out of a base Chevelle. You'd be less afraid of driving it.

Exactly why I got a LeMans instead of a GTO.  I don't feel bad dropping in an LS and T56 and driving the piss out of it.

wearymicrobe said:

As for why would would want a fake. Well its easy for me, even if I had the money for a original 550 spyder I would never drive it on the street or track. You are in full caretaker mode on a car like that. I have had both an original 356 speedster and a CSX Cobra as resale cars in the past and I never once took them out except on perfect days and to perfect events where someone was watching the cars at all times. I can leave my replica 550 spyder on the street and get coffee, I can tear up the "paint" at the track. I can put race tires on and wear out components that I can buy at JBugs. If I want to cage it I cut a hole in the body. You simply cannot do that with a original anymore. I have friends who have replica's of there own cars so they can drive them out and about. 

 

To add to this I read/watched an interview with Gordon Murray a few weeks ago around the launch of his new super car.  He was talking about why he sold his personal McLaren F1, he designed it remember.  To paraphrase he said 'When it was worth $1m I drove it all the time rain or shine and let anyone drive it.  When it hit $5m I would still drive it a lot and give friends a ride.  When it hit $10m I started checking the weather forecast carefully and shopping insurance rates every 6 months.  When it hit $20m I basically couldn't enjoy it at all due to worry so I sold it"  Do you believe the GTO that sold for $73million sees any mileage except on and off the trailer or around the green at Pebble Beach?

Patrick (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Slippery (Forum Supporter) :

I saw a thing that said peugeot owns the rights to 101-901 - all the ending in 01's.  Think it was during the petersen vault tour when they were talking about their porsche 901.

And it happened really late in the day, even after the first pre prod cars rolled off the line.  That's why a lot of part numbers are 901 not 911 as all tooling, casting, dies etc. already had 901 in/on them.

I've loved and followed Kit cars from the time I was a kid.

Ferrari will come after you hard core. The articles above were interesting. Maybe they have lost their grip. Doesn't stop them from coming after you though. How deep are your pockets to protect yourself.

Speaking of protecting yourself, I have followed Factory Five since they started in 95. They make a good kit. Shelby going after them was a money grab. He honestly has always been that way, getting money from any source he can. Check out the payouts on his heart foundation. It's pathetic. He went after FFR because they were making bank. They had the deep pockets to defend themselves, and won the right to keep making cars.

I don't know what you are thinking of making, but it needs to be something iconic, easy to manufacture, and the originals need to be unobtainable. look at the replicas available today. With Ferrari out of the question, (I think a 50's barchetta would be amazing and simple), I'm not sure what else would have enough popularity.

You can catalog build a new c1, c2 corvette, 55-57 chevy, 67-69 camaro, chevelle, etc.  unfortunately it seems most of the builders of these are after a rotten original to get the tags and title from to "rebody" their donor which is a less than legit way to go about it

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

Why would anyone put all that time and effort into having a fake anyway?

Everywhere you go, you have to explain "No, it's not a real (X)"

wearymicrobe said:

As for why would would want a fake. Well its easy for me, even if I had the money for a original 550 spyder I would never drive it on the street or track. You are in full caretaker mode on a car like that.

Same reason I have a fake Lotus Super 7. Even if I could justify the cost to purchase a real Lotus or a Caterham, I'd be too afraid to drive it.

That's a solid reason. I would rather have one to drive than one that I keep in storage.

Another possible reason:  Maybe the car you want is some oddball museum piece that you'll never find IRL

My reason:  I wanted to see if I could build a car.  

the few things I know , Gull wings were made in the 80s by "Tony "  and at the time Mercedes did not seem to care , they were very well done , 

Joe Alphabet  made a 250 GTO fiberglass  body kit on a Datsun 240Z , pretty sure Ferrari went after him for using Ferrari emblems , 

McBurnie  used a lot of Factory Ferrari parts , lights etc and Ferrari dealers would not sell those parts to anyone with a real VIN number , 

Ferris Bueller car was another "copy" that was really not a copy , just looked like a Ferrari , built in San Diego pretty close to McBurnies shop ,  .......

And then we get into Porsches , Intermeccanica Speedsters ,  in OC before moving to BC Canada , Chuck Beck  had his shop by Upland airport in the 80s ,  

There must be something in the water out here !

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

Less than legitimate.  HA.  The game has been going on for a long time.  My first job was for a now defunct company called IAD, they were a contract design and engineering house as well as some fab in the early days.  Look up the first project I worked on the Yamaha OX-99  (pic below) plus an number of in house concept cars like the IAD Alien, IAD Hunter etc..  They also built the first running NA Miata proto mule for Mazda along side the California one plus did projects for most OEMs.  

One project I know happened involved a Pegaso like this.

The owner brought in the original car complete with original chassis and engine plus all paper work.  A second 100% accurate car was built, including the mismatched side to side and sagging door hinges, and the original engine was fitted.  Then a replacement engine was sourced for the first chassis.  Both were sold on as the original car.  That happens a lot in the collector car market, there are lot's of cases of a two cars claiming to be the original, one based off the chassis # and one based off the engine #.

You think the cars you see racing in histories are really the original. HA.  Maybe over here where vintage racing is old cars running around at reasonable speed but with a lot of respect for each other they are.  But in Europe historic racing at a high level is professional racing that just happens to use old cars.  In those cases the cars you see are often not the originals but 100% accurate reproductions.  The ultra wealthy owners have had a repo made.  If a car is worth eight figures it's easier to justify a $500K - $1m reproduction to use on track.  It's so common the FIA has had to accept it.  That's why vintage race cars have to have very extensive FIA paperwork.  It's accepted that a car built 100% to original specs is accepted as original.  There's a cottage industry in the UK making 'continuation' cars with new, but in sequence, VIN numbers that are accurate down to the cloth braiding on the wiring, Whitworth fasteners, and in some cases parts are made off original tools, even the original mechanics are, or were often involved although these days many are dying off due to old age.  While some are literal clones of existing cars, many people will happily admit were built in the 90's, 00's and up to today, but the are all racing in 'in period'  vintage events.  The funny thing is those cars are probably more original than a lot of original chassis running in the States with upgraded brakes, diffs, coolers, ignition etc.  There was even an XJ13 being built to original standards that the owner/builder was working with the FIA to get sanctioned as a historic race car even though the original never raced.  And when I say original specs I mean as it was built, not as it exists today post MIRA crash.  There were a handful of the original DOHC V12's built and he found one in Germany I believe that he was using for it.  I lost track of the build a few years ago.  This is why there is a whole industry of people who basically make a living providing provenance for high end vintage cars.  They pour over old company record, interviewing race team members, examining period photo's looking for scratches, dents, location of holes etc. etc. in an attempt to 'prove' a car really truly is what it claims to be.  

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Do you believe the GTO that sold for $73million sees any mileage except on and off the trailer or around the green at Pebble Beach?

Certain collectors around here (including current and recent GTO owners) are adamant that all of their cars were built to be driven. So they will even street drive and vintage race their decamillion dollar cars...Including the Pebble Beach winners. When you have that kind of money, you live in a different world.

Driven5 said:

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Do you believe the GTO that sold for $73million sees any mileage except on and off the trailer or around the green at Pebble Beach?

Certain collectors around here (including current and recent GTO owners) are adamant that all of their cars were built to be driven. So they will even street drive and vintage race their decamillion dollar cars...Including the Pebble Beach winners. When you have that kind of money, you live in a different world.

So I know a few people like this. its a very small club. They have always explained to me that even if they completely munched the car up at the track the value of car is in the vin and the provinance and not the originallity and they can just throw 200-300K at the repair and go back out and race again. They tend to buy cars that have been raced and tend to trade cars among other collectors who also race. 

In reply to wearymicrobe :

So that's for taking the racecars on track...But what about the non-racecars and/or on the street? You know, like taking your Pebble Beach winner for a long weekend getaway with your wife, or perhaps running it in a cross country 'tour'.

Driven5 said:

In reply to wearymicrobe :

So that's for taking the racecars on track...But what about the non-racecars and/or on the street? You know, like taking your Pebble Beach winner for a long weekend getaway with your wife, or perhaps running it in a cross country 'tour'.

It's not what I see. One of the guys I know has literally everything, I mean in the low 9 figures of cars. He takes the Bentley because its comfortable or the G wagon because it is invisible in Malibu. 

slantvaliant (Forum Supporter) said:

 And, IIRC, one can't copyright a number.

 

One can't copyright a PART number.  The US courts ruled that 386, 486 were part numbers not subject to copyright, so Intel couldn't go after AMD and Cyrix for using 386 and 486 on their own processors.  Very shortly after, they renamed their almost-to-market (80)586 processor the "Pentium", and gosh that was over 25 years ago.

However, ask Porsche how well it went over when they tried to call their new car the 901.  Peugeot didn't even HAVE a 901, but they claimed ownership of three digit model numbers with a zero in the middle.

jharry3 said:

Carroll Shelby wanted Factory Five to donate $1000 per car to  his heart foundation.  This is from a direct quote, by Shelby, in an interview.

 That $1000 would have come straight out of the pocket of each kit buyer.  

Well, yeah, that's how it works.

Every Pontiac Trans-Am ever made sent $5 to the SCCA for use of the name, too.

In reply to wearymicrobe :

There is one in particular that I've chatted with who basically does just that with his 9 figure collection...He'll drive a ~$20M concours car just to go hang out at the local vintage races. He and his wife have also done a numerous cross country road rallies and tours around the world, including multiple of them in one of their Pebble Beach winners. Things like that.

Perhaps that is the difference between a collector-enthusiast and an enthusiast-collector.

I have customers where I put more miles on their collection than they do.

I also have customers who drive their cars so hard I can barely keep up with the stuff they break.

There's all kinds out there.

In reply to Driven5 :

Some people definitely live differently than the rest of us.  The closest I have to a hero is Jim Glickenhaus, I've seen him driving around in all manner of extremely valuable cars.  The first time I saw his P4/5 running around in the traffic in the rain I realized what a man crush was. 

ShawnG said:

I have customers where I put more miles on their collection than they do.

I also have customers who drive their cars so hard I can barely keep up with the stuff they break.

There's all kinds out there.

Awesome.  Without giving out too many details can you give us some cool stories about both extremes?

wearymicrobe said:

Why are there no replica's of "X", lets focus on the 63 corvette. First off I am sure someone has tried, but the biggest issue with kit cars beyond people getting way in over their heads on builds is actually doors/windows. If you look at the successful kits, Cobra's, 356's, 550 spyders, Manx's they are all topless and they don't have glass in the doors.  Look at the few kits that do have tops like the 65 daytona and you will find that they all have fixed windows. Adding doors increases the complexity of the kit almost 25% and the cost. Add in glass that moves in a door and its darn near another 25%. Then the cost, and it never ever looks right. Also Corvettes are way to cheap even 63's to build kits of. It would be much cheaper to buy a ratty running car and work on it over the weekend then to build a kit. 

There's an apocryphal story about the 2nd Gen Rx-7 development, where the head of the company wanted a 'vert, but the head designer of the car absolutely did not.  To fight against having a convertible, the designer made the doors a full-frame, knowing that doors are the most expensive individual part of the car to produce and that Mazda wouldn't pay to develop completely different tooling.  After the car entered production, the head of the company made them make a 'vert anyway, and they had to design a completely different door assembly, which is why the vert & the coupe use those different panels at great expense.

WonkoTheSane (Forum Supporter) said: 

There's an apocryphal story...

This one's going up as the word of the day...Thanks!

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

The guy who never drives them has a fantastic collection of big, sporty, pre-war cars as well as a few post-war. Packard V12's, Duesenbergs, A Mercedes 540K, Horch 853, 289 Cobra and a few Ferraris. 

The guy who drives heck out of them has a Lincoln V12, a couple sporty Model T Fords, a Model S and a Sears Runabout, He could afford the big cars but has more fun in his more approachable stuff. He also has a Carrera GT which he almost never drives because "it's boring". If you're out with him, it's like being on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. 10 10ths in a 1911 Model T is sketchy as frig.

jharry3 said:

This is the same Carroll Shelby who "discovered" a bunch of "old" Cobra chassis in a warehouse that supposedly were built in the 60's and stored.  Methinks he didn't want competition for the sale of these when he built them out.  Speculation was they were not built then but he did file paper work on their serial numbers in the 60's so they were legally old cars.

(I admit I do not know the outcome of this, only the article about it with pictures of stacks of chassis in a warehouse.)

I thought Shelby lost that battle.