Lets build a Wind Tower.

I think this is as good a lively discussion as I have seen in some time. What solution makes the most sense is very dependent on where you live. As you move away from the equator and get more cloudy weather the actual performance of photovoltaics needs to be looked at real hard. As your utility rate goes higher, it makes other sources seem better.

Biggest energy users in our homes will be hvac, water heaters, dryers (note they all require 240 volts). So spend money on insulation, etc.. I tell people who want to do something to do that first, if you want something else a solar thermal setup that heats your water directly is cheap and saves more money. Big reason for that is that you use hot water year round, so even places that are cloudy in the winter will benefit. Photovoltaics wont produce much during the highest energy need days for us northerners. But once again-location dependent.

Sorry for the long post. Just FYI: I graduated with an Electrical Engineering degree last year with a focus on Renewable Energy. I ran a gas station for 12 years before going back to school, and now I am an engineer for a power utility. We actually own our own hydro plant, part of a wind farm, buy most of our power from BPA (dams). I am in the middle of a project as the lead engineer programming modern relaying and communications in a large substation right now. i don't generally toot my own horn, but I guess i just did. Sorry.

Jcamper

it's too bad that nuclear fusion is always 50 years away...

In reply to novaderrik:

Isn't that because they keep blowing their research budget on weed?

We need an energy supply system that doesn't rely on burning stuff to generate the power, AND a building code that results in less power needs. I've toured homes that are liveable ,but not terribly comfortable with no heating system for example. A home done right can be heated or cooled with much less energy. Combine that with some combination of wind/solar/nuclear/storage and our reliance on energy from fossil fuels could be greatly reduced.

In reply to DeadSkunk:

Apartment buildings do wonders to reduce per capita heating and cooling. Encourage more large apartment buildings.

In reply to alfadriver:
But they don't come with 1200 square feet of garage space.....

In reply to DeadSkunk:

Here in the rural midwest, the cost of heating/cooling combined with the cost of tillable acreage is causing more and more old country farmhouses to be demolished each year, and the ground tilled and planted. Generally I'd say that's a good thing, although there is a bit of the history/heritage that goes with them...then again, if the homes were already in disrepair - as many are - I don't have much of a problem with it.

In reply to Jcamper:

It is good to have people with utility experience in the conversation. Thanks for participating.

Your point about reducing usage is spot on. When she was doing direct sales of rooftop PV here in California, one of the first things my wife would do was council potential clients that reducing usage through insulation, upgraded windows, more efficient appliances, etc. often have a better ROI than solar.

There are a lot of uninsulated homes here. during the building booms of the 40's, 50's, and 60's no-one paid much attention to it.

petegossett wrote: In reply to DeadSkunk: Here in the rural midwest, the cost of heating/cooling combined with the cost of tillable acreage is causing more and more old country farmhouses to be demolished each year, and the ground tilled and planted. Generally I'd say that's a good thing, although there is a bit of the history/heritage that goes with them...then again, if the homes were already in disrepair - as many are - I don't have much of a problem with it.

old farm houses get knocked down because the kids move away to the city as soon as they can and the family farm winds up getting sold to the local mega farms who buy up all the land that they can. they have no need for yet another 100 year old house, so they knock it down and plant crops where the house used to be and get more back for their investment.

In reply to Type Q:

I got an estimate for rooftop solar last month. It was only going to save me about $20 a month, but investment wise made sense for long term.

Since it made me review the last 12 months of energy use I decided I just use too much electricity.

Tier 1 is $.17 per KW

Tier 2 is $.20 per KW

Tier 3 is $.40 per KW

So now my new goal is to stay at or below Tier 2. Helps me save money and puts that much less stress on the grid.

In reply to novaderrik:

That too.

Zombie thread

I worked on the wind farm here in Atlantic City doing maintenance. Yes, I used to climb up the insides of the masts and then into the head to replace parts. I didn't actually do much of the work, I was more a "pack mule" to the certified tech. Occasionally I would get to help, but usually I just carried stuff up and down. It's a VERY long climb, I kind of miss the job though, it was interesting and a lot different from my usual truss climbing.

ECM, what resurrects these oldies and what's the intent?

An interesting fact:

When considering the environmental footprint...Don't think that reclaiming the foot-print from a windmill would be easy. There is a huge chunk of concrete buried under the ground to support that thing.

NextEra Energy uses over 800 metric tons of concrete for each turbine they construct, with investments worth $1.7 billion and 8 wind projects in Ontario, also adding more jobs in the concrete industry.

 Also note that despite the jobs boast, it is one of those activities that creates jobs at a net loss to the consumer and taxpayer. Pork-barrel at its best.

A curious photo that I saw was of windmills in Puerto Rico after the hurricane. They seem to have weathered the storm quite well.

NOHOME said:

Also note that despite the jobs boast, it is one of those activities that creates jobs at a net loss to the consumer and taxpayer. Pork-barrel at its best.

Other than a sincere "citation needed," from a non-partisan source, I would also ask you to apply the same analysis to any power generation project. I doubt there's a single power generating facility in the world that was built without taxpayer subsidies and cost to the consumer. That's the nature of the beast, man. Applying that lens only to power generating methods you don't like is pretty silly.

Anytime I see a zombie thread like this after the canoe that brought it back has been blown out of the water, I feel like I missed out. What was that canoe all about? Were they spamming us with links to buy windmills? Do they really expect GRMers to be their core demographic?

For anyone wondering how the hell a huge wind turbine cranking out buttloads of electricity all day can fail to pay itself off within its lifetime, the answer is that its lifetime would have to be less than one year:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140616093317.htm

GameboyRMH said:

For anyone wondering how the hell a huge wind turbine cranking out buttloads of electricity all day can fail to pay itself off within its lifetime, the answer is that its lifetime would have to be less than one year:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140616093317.htm

That's actually fascinating. Less than one year and the rest is just maintenance.
 

I wonder if Alibaba delivers, and how do I get this classified as a "HAM radio tower" to avoid zoning issues...

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2MW-wind-turbine-power-generator_341368720.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.141.51a370ed0WsWqw

The big thing here is solar farms.  I wonder how efficient they will be when they get covered with snow and no sunshine.    Maybe they will pay off enough while the sun is shining.

tuna55 said:

Joe Gearin wrote: Wind farms are cool in a War of the Worlds kind of way. Unfortunately, from what I understand, those big windmills will never pay for themselves--- they just aren't efficient enough. IIRC they "turn-on" with the help of an electric motor once the wind speed is above 10mph, and have to turn off if the wind speed exceeds 40,mph or they will risk breaking. A cool idea....but they don't make financial sense yet. Solar makes more sense for renewable energy.

From an insider in the industry, albeit a few years ago, solar still isn't paying back within the lifespan of the cells yet in most cases.

I may be biased, but give me one of these for this country right now.

They are awfully efficient and the emissions are nearly as clean as the air it takes in.

On a budget? One of these then.

Ok, I have to ask, what is that?

This looks oddly familiar yet extremely bizarre at the same time.

Is that the head of a windmill or something else altogether?

RevRico said:

tuna55 said:

Joe Gearin wrote: Wind farms are cool in a War of the Worlds kind of way. Unfortunately, from what I understand, those big windmills will never pay for themselves--- they just aren't efficient enough. IIRC they "turn-on" with the help of an electric motor once the wind speed is above 10mph, and have to turn off if the wind speed exceeds 40,mph or they will risk breaking. A cool idea....but they don't make financial sense yet. Solar makes more sense for renewable energy.

From an insider in the industry, albeit a few years ago, solar still isn't paying back within the lifespan of the cells yet in most cases.

I may be biased, but give me one of these for this country right now.

They are awfully efficient and the emissions are nearly as clean as the air it takes in.

On a budget? One of these then.

Ok, I have to ask, what is that?

This looks oddly familiar yet extremely bizarre at the same time.

Is that the head of a windmill or something else altogether?

Natural Gas powered micro-turbine

 Interesting Reading

In reply to 914Driver :

I can't hazard a guess on intent, but this one was resurected with a link to a video on windmills and also a new thread started by same brand new poster linking the same video. My guess is trying to drive the views up for the video, I did not click to view due to the general spamminess. Oops, I guess I can hazard a guess. 

In reply to alfadriver :

The hard part is figuring a real GRM price vs. the payback. And where to get a decent 12v (or whatever)DC to 120V ac inverter- one that is nice an efficient"

you are aware that every alternator, minus the 3 phase to DC rectifier, is just a 3 phase generator? all you need is a 3ph to singe phase inverter, and you can run it directly into a power supply. Or, leave the rectifier, and convert all your household lighting into 12V LED, set up a small battery for load leveling, and run the Alt direct into the battery. ive seen guys branch off 6 or 8 circuits in their home panels, and convert them to 12 or 24V, then run all the lighting off those circuits.

-J0N

iceracer said:

The big thing here is solar farms.  I wonder how efficient they will be when they get covered with snow and no sunshine.    Maybe they will pay off enough while the sun is shining.

There are quite a few solar farms near me in SE PA along with hundreds of little 120V PetraSolar panels mounted on utility poles all over central NJ.  We get snow.  Do the panels get covered with snow? Yes.  Then the sun comes out, the panels get just slightly warm and the snow slides off.  This actually happens pretty quickly. Quickly enough that snow isn't really a concern.

Why does everyone want any one idea to be the sole solution? Viewed in that way, it's easy to find faults and dismiss anything. It will take a combination of many ideas to work in different situations and conditions. Here in the Mid-Atlantic, a combination of solar and wind could provide a fair amount of power, but the percentages will vary depending on conditions. During the warmer months where we have more day light, but often less wind, solar would work.  In the winter, the days are shorter, but in general it tends to be windier, so wind power could make up the difference.

It may be interesting to see what is done with Puerto Rico in the coming years.  It seems that much of the power grid has been completely destroyed from Maria. Taken as a positive, rebuilding may give them the opportunity to make it better.  Micro turbines could be a possible solution.  Instead of large power stations and a somewhat vulnerable high voltage distribution system, maybe replace that with numerous small power stations that can provide considerably more redundancy.  Central plants are typically more efficient, but newer turbines might make up for some of that.