Counterfeit goods are everywhere. Just sayin'.
Counterfeit goods are everywhere. Just sayin'.
bravenrace wrote:Swank Force One wrote: Well the thread started with "We hate China," and then somewhere in here it came down to "If you don't buy USA, you hate America" or something like that. There's a big difference there. For instance, i make it a POINT to try to seek out Taiwan tools because in my budget, they're almost always the best tools i can get. But if USA made stuff is an option at my price point without stepping down in quality (This includes features and finish), i buy it. I tend to not buy Chinese tools anymore because i don't see them making much in the way of high end tools, that being "Better than the cheapest HF stuff you can find." I do buy my specialty tools that i'll use maybe twice in my lifetime from HF, and they're usually Chinese.You find tools made in Taiwan that are high end?
Got to be better than the new Crapsman junk. Talk about E36 M3 product. I've got old and new Crapsman tools. The old are holding up. THe new? Complete piles of E36 M3. 1/4" ratchet that works for one job before teeth start missing etc. Sockets breaking. Wrenches bending.
Yeah, I'll stick to the decent stuff I can find that isn't all made here. If we want to be competitive, we need to produce a better product. Shouldn't have to rely on the "If oyu don't buy American you're a god damn commie" approach.
Mitchell wrote:bravenrace wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: I was making a living with my tools. I didn't buy Craftsman, as they are not and never have been professional quality tools.Would you have bought the same quality of tools if you did not use them to make a living? My work boots are Red Wings; by far the most expensive pair of shoes that I own. It's more difficult to justify an expense when it does not lead me to making money.
I can't say for sure, since that wasn't the case. But I generally believe that buying good quality products ends up being the best value overall. For example, I have a Quincy Air Compressor, not a cheap one, but it will last me the rest of my life. I still buy professional quality tools when I need them, because I like to buy things one time and have confidence that they are not likely to break. I have a professional lawn mower, and I own a bunch of Stihl products, all for the same reason.
I just believe in buying a good product over a cheap one. It's always seemed to pay off for me, since I don't have to mess around with broken tools or fixing a lawn mower or any piece of equipment every time I need to use it.
Years ago I lived next to a guy that always bought cheap 21" rotary lawn mowers. When I moved in to my house, I bought a Honda mower. By the time I moved out 10 years later he was on his 3rd mower. He also struggled with them every time he mowed the lawn. It took many pulls to get them started, and the bags were always clogging up. My Honda just kept starting on the 1st or 2nd pull and working like a charm. I moved out of that house 14 years ago and I still have that Honda, and it still works like a charm, although I have to admit that my yard now is too large to use it for anything other than trimming. How many mowers do you think he's gone through?
I don't want to deal with broken tools or tools that don't work as intended, so I buy good ones. When I built my shop, I thought I just couldn't justify a good air nailer, so I bought one from HF. It broke within the first hour I was using it. I took it back and exchanged it, which was an ordeal in itself. That one worked for a while, but then started acting up again. After repairing it 4 or 5 times, I went out and bought a Bostich nailer and was able to actually work on my shop instead of repairing my nailer. I haven't used that nailer since, but I don't regret the purchase, because it made my life a lot easier, I know if I ever do need to use it again it will work again as intended, and if I ever decide I no longer need it, I will either sell it (and it will be worth something) or hand it down to one of my kids. Think that HF nailer is worthy of being handed down?
I don't expect everyone to see things my way on this, but this is what I believe is best for me.
Now, before you all jump all over me about Stihl and Honda and Bostich not being American, let me tell you that I consider more than just that when I buy something, plus all of these tools were purchased long before I started caring about made in the USA. BTW, the Stihl stuff and the Honda mower were made in the USA.
But this is all really off topic (sort of) for this thread, except for the fact that if American's didn't buy so many Chinese made products we wouldn't have to worry about their pollution blowing across the pond. So if anyone wants to point blame, they may want to evaluate their own buying habits first.
Bobzilla wrote:bravenrace wrote:Got to be better than the new Crapsman junk. Talk about E36 M3 product. I've got old and new Crapsman tools. The old are holding up. THe new? Complete piles of E36 M3. 1/4" ratchet that works for one job before teeth start missing etc. Sockets breaking. Wrenches bending. Yeah, I'll stick to the decent stuff I can find that isn't all made here. If we want to be competitive, we need to produce a better product. Shouldn't have to rely on the "If oyu don't buy American you're a god damn commie" approach.Swank Force One wrote: Well the thread started with "We hate China," and then somewhere in here it came down to "If you don't buy USA, you hate America" or something like that. There's a big difference there. For instance, i make it a POINT to try to seek out Taiwan tools because in my budget, they're almost always the best tools i can get. But if USA made stuff is an option at my price point without stepping down in quality (This includes features and finish), i buy it. I tend to not buy Chinese tools anymore because i don't see them making much in the way of high end tools, that being "Better than the cheapest HF stuff you can find." I do buy my specialty tools that i'll use maybe twice in my lifetime from HF, and they're usually Chinese.You find tools made in Taiwan that are high end?
You seem to just love to put words in my mouth. First, I never said anything good about Craftsman tools. In fact, I said the opposite. Second, I never said anyone was a commie if they didn't buy American.
What I am saying is that there are things bigger and more important that you or me. This country is in dire straights financially, and the media is doing a really good job of not reporting the facts. Do you know that if China called in our debt, our entire economy would most likely collapse? Do you know how much property and businesses in this country are owned by Chinese? There are many more big problems that stem from American consumer buying habits, and we are not headed in the right direction to correcting any of it. Taken to its potential end, if we don't change, China could actually end up owning this country.
I can't make the difference all by myself, but I choose to be part of the solution instead of the problem.
Again, I'm not saying everyone should buy American only, and you are a terrible person if you buy anything else. I'm saying if I have a choice, I always consider buying American, and do it if it makes sense. You really find fault with that?
China is going through many of the same stages of growth that the USA went through. There was a time when we created a LOT of pollution making products that were exported. In our case it's be a use we had oodles of cheap natural resources that made us globally super competitive. Right now China is using cheap labor and lax environmental laws to maintain that competitiveness. That's changing as labor prices rise and there is some push for cleaner manufacturing. As long as shipping remains cheap the world will continue to flatten it's standard or living for the masses.
bravenrace wrote:Bobzilla wrote:You seem to just love to put words in my mouth. First, I never said anything good about Craftsman tools. In fact, I said the opposite. Second, I never said anyone was a commie if they didn't buy American. What I am saying is that there are things bigger and more important that you or me. This country is in dire straights financially, and the media is doing a really good job of not reporting the facts. Do you know that if China called in our debt, our entire economy would most likely collapse? Do you know how much property and businesses in this country are owned by Chinese? There are many more big problems that stem from American consumer buying habits, and we are not headed in the right direction to correcting any of it. Taken to its potential end, if we don't change, China could actually end up owning this country. I can't make the difference all by myself, but I choose to be part of the solution instead of the problem. Again, I'm not saying everyone should buy American only, and you are a terrible person if you buy anything else. I'm saying if I have a choice, I always consider buying American, and do it if it makes sense. You really find fault with that?bravenrace wrote:Got to be better than the new Crapsman junk. Talk about E36 M3 product. I've got old and new Crapsman tools. The old are holding up. THe new? Complete piles of E36 M3. 1/4" ratchet that works for one job before teeth start missing etc. Sockets breaking. Wrenches bending. Yeah, I'll stick to the decent stuff I can find that isn't all made here. If we want to be competitive, we need to produce a better product. Shouldn't have to rely on the "If oyu don't buy American you're a god damn commie" approach.Swank Force One wrote: Well the thread started with "We hate China," and then somewhere in here it came down to "If you don't buy USA, you hate America" or something like that. There's a big difference there. For instance, i make it a POINT to try to seek out Taiwan tools because in my budget, they're almost always the best tools i can get. But if USA made stuff is an option at my price point without stepping down in quality (This includes features and finish), i buy it. I tend to not buy Chinese tools anymore because i don't see them making much in the way of high end tools, that being "Better than the cheapest HF stuff you can find." I do buy my specialty tools that i'll use maybe twice in my lifetime from HF, and they're usually Chinese.You find tools made in Taiwan that are high end?
You just stated that everyone that doesn't do what you're doing is part of the problem and therefore we do not care about the country. That's not putting words in your mouth, it's pointing out what you're saying.
Here's the problem with "the sky is falling" philosphy of China and our debt. They "buy us" and who is left to be their #1 consumer? I'm not saying we don't have a spending problem because as a country we do. I just choose to be as close to debt free as possible and buy the best products at a reasonable price to suit my needs. Going into debt to buy a single ratchet from one of your approved vendors doesn't cut it for me.
yamaha wrote: In reply to volvoclearinghouse: Just to touch base on the house thing, have you noticed how much larger homes are getting compared to those from the 1950's?
Yes, I have seen that- the average home size is about 50% larger now than it was in the 1950's. Which also means it cost that much more to heat, that much more to furnish and repair, that much more to clean, keep the lights on...
Don't get me wrong- I'm all for capitalism. If you want to buy a 3,000 sq ft house, by all means, have at it. I think there are people, however, that are getting caught up in the "got to have it all, have it big, and have as much of it as possible NOW" mentality that got in serious trouble because of that.
When my wife and I were house hunting last year, we found an old farmhouse that we fell in love with. It was amazing- and it was kindof at the edge of our budget and it was 2700 sq feet. It was way, way more house than we really needed. In the end, we found a place that was 1700 sq feet, significantly cheaper, and we're happy here.
In reply to bravenrace:
The issue I have with that now is that many so-called or used-to-be "high-end" goods are getting cheapened down to compete with Chinese stuff, or simply because the corporate accountants are seeing ways to shave a few bucks off the cost of manufacture, still charge a high price, and cash in on the reputation.
An example: I used to own a 1968 Cub Cadet lawn tractor. It was big, it was heavy, and it did everything a tractor should do perfectly. I was in high school, and I used it to cut lawns for cash in the summer. I must have cut hundreds of lawns with it, and it never, ever let me down. In retrospect, I never should have sold it.
Fast forward a few years. My dad bought a brand new Cub Cadet, based on my glowing reviews of the 30 year old model. His tractor, though, was cheapened up and after 10 years and over $1,000 in repairs, he sold it and bought a cheaper tractor. His rationale was, if it was only going to last 10 years, he wasn't going to spend 4 grand on a lawn mower. Likewise, I bought a newer Cub Cadet a few years back, and it was garbage. The gearbox, rather than being cast iron like my 60's model, was aluminum, and it cracked after a couple of years, rendering the tractor useless. I sold it and bought a 1990's vintage John Deere, which has been better, but still has issues. This year I am seriously considering selling the Deere and buying something built in the 60's again.
Bobzilla wrote:bravenrace wrote:You just stated that everyone that doesn't do what you're doing is part of the problem and therefore we do not care about the country. That's not putting words in your mouth, it's pointing out what you're saying. Here's the problem with "the sky is falling" philosphy of China and our debt. They "buy us" and who is left to be their #1 consumer? I'm not saying we don't have a spending problem because as a country we do. I just choose to be as close to debt free as possible and buy the best products at a reasonable price to suit my needs. Going into debt to buy a single ratchet from one of your approved vendors doesn't cut it for me.Bobzilla wrote:You seem to just love to put words in my mouth. First, I never said anything good about Craftsman tools. In fact, I said the opposite. Second, I never said anyone was a commie if they didn't buy American. What I am saying is that there are things bigger and more important that you or me. This country is in dire straights financially, and the media is doing a really good job of not reporting the facts. Do you know that if China called in our debt, our entire economy would most likely collapse? Do you know how much property and businesses in this country are owned by Chinese? There are many more big problems that stem from American consumer buying habits, and we are not headed in the right direction to correcting any of it. Taken to its potential end, if we don't change, China could actually end up owning this country. I can't make the difference all by myself, but I choose to be part of the solution instead of the problem. Again, I'm not saying everyone should buy American only, and you are a terrible person if you buy anything else. I'm saying if I have a choice, I always consider buying American, and do it if it makes sense. You really find fault with that?bravenrace wrote:Got to be better than the new Crapsman junk. Talk about E36 M3 product. I've got old and new Crapsman tools. The old are holding up. THe new? Complete piles of E36 M3. 1/4" ratchet that works for one job before teeth start missing etc. Sockets breaking. Wrenches bending. Yeah, I'll stick to the decent stuff I can find that isn't all made here. If we want to be competitive, we need to produce a better product. Shouldn't have to rely on the "If oyu don't buy American you're a god damn commie" approach.Swank Force One wrote: Well the thread started with "We hate China," and then somewhere in here it came down to "If you don't buy USA, you hate America" or something like that. There's a big difference there. For instance, i make it a POINT to try to seek out Taiwan tools because in my budget, they're almost always the best tools i can get. But if USA made stuff is an option at my price point without stepping down in quality (This includes features and finish), i buy it. I tend to not buy Chinese tools anymore because i don't see them making much in the way of high end tools, that being "Better than the cheapest HF stuff you can find." I do buy my specialty tools that i'll use maybe twice in my lifetime from HF, and they're usually Chinese.You find tools made in Taiwan that are high end?
Stating that we have a problem isn't the same as calling people commies. And if I gave you the impression that I am one of the "sky is falling" tin hat types, I'm not. I just believe in being pro-active in solving problems, not wait for them to get to a critical point. Are you claiming we don't have a problem? According to your last post, no. I'm just stating that we do have a problem, so from what I can see, we are in agreement except that it doesn't seem to mean enough to you to try and help doing anything about, and it does to me. And if you have to go into debt to buy a ratchet, you shouldn't be doing any ratcheting unless someone is paying you for it...In which case you are going to want a good one.
volvoclearinghouse wrote: In reply to bravenrace: The issue I have with that now is that many so-called or used-to-be "high-end" goods are getting cheapened down to compete with Chinese stuff, or simply because the corporate accountants are seeing ways to shave a few bucks off the cost of manufacture, still charge a high price, and cash in on the reputation. An example: I used to own a 1968 Cub Cadet lawn tractor. It was big, it was heavy, and it did everything a tractor should do perfectly. I was in high school, and I used it to cut lawns for cash in the summer. I must have cut hundreds of lawns with it, and it never, ever let me down. In retrospect, I never should have sold it. Fast forward a few years. My dad bought a brand new Cub Cadet, based on my glowing reviews of the 30 year old model. His tractor, though, was cheapened up and after 10 years and over $1,000 in repairs, he sold it and bought a cheaper tractor. His rationale was, if it was only going to last 10 years, he wasn't going to spend 4 grand on a lawn mower. Likewise, I bought a newer Cub Cadet a few years back, and it was garbage. The gearbox, rather than being cast iron like my 60's model, was aluminum, and it cracked after a couple of years, rendering the tractor useless. I sold it and bought a 1990's vintage John Deere, which has been better, but still has issues. This year I am seriously considering selling the Deere and buying something built in the 60's again.
You've just stated what the problem is. People want more for less, and companies have to provide or they go out of business.
A couple things about Cub Cadet. One is that they aren't and never have been true commercial quality products, although I agree that at one time they were high quality consumer products. But they didn't just cheapen their product, they were bought out by MTD, and were basically thrown in with all the other MTD-owned brands so that they largely became an MTD with a different name.
If you want a true commerical quality mower, something that will hold up over time and be worth repairing when the time comes that it needs it, you buy a Walker, Scag, Ferris, or similar, not a lawn tractor.
volvoclearinghouse wrote:yamaha wrote: In reply to volvoclearinghouse: Just to touch base on the house thing, have you noticed how much larger homes are getting compared to those from the 1950's?Yes, I have seen that- the average home size is about 50% larger now than it was in the 1950's. Which also means it cost that much more to heat, that much more to furnish and repair, that much more to clean, keep the lights on... Don't get me wrong- I'm all for capitalism. If you want to buy a 3,000 sq ft house, by all means, have at it. I think there are people, however, that are getting caught up in the "got to have it all, have it big, and have as much of it as possible NOW" mentality that got in serious trouble because of that. When my wife and I were house hunting last year, we found an old farmhouse that we fell in love with. It was amazing- and it was kindof at the edge of our budget and it was 2700 sq feet. It was way, way more house than we really needed. In the end, we found a place that was 1700 sq feet, significantly cheaper, and we're happy here.
I grew up in a small 3 bedroom rancher in Ocean City NJ. It had a 2 car garage in back and my parents added 8 feet to the living room (making it 16x16. The biggest bedroom was 12x12 and the smallest 8x10. It was a great house and still stands today.. as the smallest house in the neighborhood. Once it was the biggest house (due to the addition to the living room) and today, it is dwarfed by McMansions in all directions.
We're raising four kids in 1400 square feet and people's minds melt when I tell them that.
volvoclearinghouse wrote: Don't get me wrong- I'm all for capitalism. If you want to buy a 3,000 sq ft house, by all means, have at it. I think there are people, however, that are getting caught up in the "got to have it all, have it big, and have as much of it as possible NOW" mentality that got in serious trouble because of that.
I agree, unfortunately that is what threw us into this big mess we are still in currently.
mazdeuce wrote: We're raising four kids in 1400 square feet and people's minds melt when I tell them that.
The way I look at it is, we have a 1700 sq foot house, and a 137,214 square foot yard. Need more space? Go play outside.
Back to the original issue: reports are that air pollution is getting so bad that China's rich are sending their families overseas to live. Perhaps this will change the pendulum, if nothing else will.
In reply to Mitchell:
Does that report also bother to mention that the wealthy Chinese are fleeing the country due to most of their fortunes were made by corruption and the government is starting to crack down on them?
The unwealthy I could see for enviromental reasons, the wealthy are doing it to preserve wealth. 
yamaha wrote: In reply to Mitchell: ...the wealthy are doing it to preserve wealth.
Because of course all wealthy people are corrupt.
bravenrace wrote:Bobzilla wrote:You seem to just love to put words in my mouth. First, I never said anything good about Craftsman tools. In fact, I said the opposite. Second, I never said anyone was a commie if they didn't buy American. What I am saying is that there are things bigger and more important that you or me. This country is in dire straights financially, and the media is doing a really good job of not reporting the facts. Do you know that if China called in our debt, our entire economy would most likely collapse? Do you know how much property and businesses in this country are owned by Chinese? There are many more big problems that stem from American consumer buying habits, and we are not headed in the right direction to correcting any of it. Taken to its potential end, if we don't change, China could actually end up owning this country. I can't make the difference all by myself, but I choose to be part of the solution instead of the problem. Again, I'm not saying everyone should buy American only, and you are a terrible person if you buy anything else. I'm saying if I have a choice, I always consider buying American, and do it if it makes sense. You really find fault with that?bravenrace wrote:Got to be better than the new Crapsman junk. Talk about E36 M3 product. I've got old and new Crapsman tools. The old are holding up. THe new? Complete piles of E36 M3. 1/4" ratchet that works for one job before teeth start missing etc. Sockets breaking. Wrenches bending. Yeah, I'll stick to the decent stuff I can find that isn't all made here. If we want to be competitive, we need to produce a better product. Shouldn't have to rely on the "If oyu don't buy American you're a god damn commie" approach.Swank Force One wrote: Well the thread started with "We hate China," and then somewhere in here it came down to "If you don't buy USA, you hate America" or something like that. There's a big difference there. For instance, i make it a POINT to try to seek out Taiwan tools because in my budget, they're almost always the best tools i can get. But if USA made stuff is an option at my price point without stepping down in quality (This includes features and finish), i buy it. I tend to not buy Chinese tools anymore because i don't see them making much in the way of high end tools, that being "Better than the cheapest HF stuff you can find." I do buy my specialty tools that i'll use maybe twice in my lifetime from HF, and they're usually Chinese.You find tools made in Taiwan that are high end?
We have a global economy, which kills the craftsman ship of our products, by everybody undercutting everybody, honestly I would love to have my own business but I know I could never compete, with all the cheap items in the market unless I sold them. Quality may be a forgotten name in the future.
bravenrace wrote:yamaha wrote: In reply to Mitchell: ...the wealthy are doing it to preserve wealth.Because of course all wealthy people are corrupt.
Notice the term "SOME" was used...... Needless to say, the wealthy there aren't fleeing china in record numbers due to the pollution.
yamaha wrote:bravenrace wrote:Notice the term "SOME" was used......yamaha wrote: In reply to Mitchell: ...the wealthy are doing it to preserve wealth.Because of course all wealthy people are corrupt.
Um,no, I don't see "some" used anywhere in that sentence. In any case, I only mentioned it because there is a wide spread fallacy in this country that all rich people are evil, and that is very far from the truth. What we should all hate is greed and corruption, two problems that exist on all economic levels. And we should never forget that if there were no rich people, there would pretty much not be much of anything. In this group, people might want to consider that their precious cheap HF tools wouldn't exist.
Why do you have to be such a douche about this? Seriously. Completely uncalled for. Just because Someone buys a few cheap tools is no reason to be a dick about it. That last sentence is extremely condescending and completely uncalled for.
In reply to Bobzilla:
Thank you. Good thing your're not a dick.
Edit - You know Bob, this is the way I talk. I'm not trying to be a dick or a douche, I just talk, and I'll admit that I'm not all that good at sugar-coating what I say, but I'm okay with that. I'm really sorry if you are offended by anything I say, but I can't help that. You seem particularly sensitive to any comment about cheap tools, and I have to wonder why.
I'll tell you this though - You will NEVER read anything I write where I make a personal attack on someone by calling them a derogatory name.
"Their precious cheap HF tools" really does reek of "only ignorant peasants buy that E36 M3 instead of SnapOn prostate stimulators," just saying.
There's a pretty easy way to say what you did without the unecessary snideness.
Simmer down now. 
What about Chinese women? They are often cost effective to acquire and maintain. They are often better built than their American competition too.
There are a lot of stories about them with a Happy Ending.
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