Michigan State Police not riding Harleys???

pres589 wrote: In reply to ST_ZX2: A different angle that doesn't make sense from an engineering standpoint? Let me guess, "characteristic H-D sound & vibration" edicts from the marketing department?

No. 60 is a more proper angle for a performance V-twin (than is 45). Aprilia also has a 60* V-Twin motor.

ST_ZX2 wrote: Also, Pres--The Revolution V-Rod engine is a 60* motor. It is still very much state-of-the-art. Please get the facts straight.

The V-Rod is the last vestige of Harley's 1990's era road race program. The engine came from the VTR1000.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/vr1000_obit.htm

One magazine of the time commented how the H-D race team had the nicest transporter, everything they had was color matched orange and black, lots of pretty girls dressed in H-D gear but had time etc showings on a par with some of the fast privateers. Harley threw money at top riders but still coudn't get a good showing, they had a total of one pole and one win. They pulled the plug finally; some rumors going around at the time were that they coudn't find a top level rider because the bike was unrideable and there was no cooperation from management to make the thing a winner.

EDIT: The race bike was the VR1000, not the VTR.

good for them... resale value is a non issue (ever look at what they sell a p71 for after all the years of use?)... reliability and it doing what they need while meeting a price point seem to be the biggest issues... something the BMW has managed to do...

I'm still a bit surprised that we don't see more Japanese touring type bikes also doing this type of duty

dyintorace wrote: I'm not sure how many motorcycles H-D has produced over the years, but my gut tells me that BMW USA is more important to our GDP than H-D.

Harley builds about 200K bikes/year. Engines are built in Milwaukee, and final assembly is in York, PA or Kansas City, depending on model. Three large factories, and a fourth in Tomahawk, WI that does paint/fiberglass, along with standalone R&D and administrative offices in Milwaukee. In addition to that, there are dozens if not hundreds of businesses in existence (just) to service the H-D aftermarket...wheels, pipes, chrome, leather etc. I am willing to bet there are far more H-D dealers than there are BMW dealers too. My gut tells me that your gut might be in need of recalibration.

ST_ZX2 wrote: I am willing to bet there are far more H-D dealers than there are BMW dealers too. My gut tells me that your gut might be in need of recalibration.

You mean H-D apparel shops? I walked into a dealer once and it was just a building full of clothes with a few bikes in the back.

If you want a Harley, only a Harley is what you want. And they've done what appears to be a remarkable job of sanitizing the design to meet modern emissions standards and dentist-level appliance reliability standards while retaining the iconic look-and-feel elements.

But their focus hasn't been building the best go/stop/turn-with-variations-for-type machine in a long, long time.

So they are, in their own way, engineering marvels. It's just that their engineers were given a very different set of requirements than what you would give for "a functional motorcycle".

The only other manufacturer I've seen running into the same thing at all is Ducati seeming to possibly run into issues making "90-degree V" and "modern ultraperformance bike" apply to the same vehicle, but there is still a lot of uncertainty about whether that's actually the crux (specifically weight distribution and packaging of a 90-degree V) of the problem in their MotoGP effort.

EvanB wrote:

ST_ZX2 wrote: I am willing to bet there are far more H-D dealers than there are BMW dealers too. My gut tells me that your gut might be in need of recalibration.

You mean H-D apparel shops? I walked into a dealer once and it was just a building full of clothes with a few bikes in the back.

That sounds exactly like HD of Orlando

I bet ST_ZX2 knows more people involved with the design, marketing and manufacture of HDs, than the lot of you guys know involved in those aspects of BMW motorcycles.

Say what you will about HD, but plenty of other manufacturers make motorcycles better suited to police use.

ransom wrote: If you want a Harley, only a Harley is what you want. And they've done what appears to be a remarkable job of sanitizing the design to meet modern emissions standards and dentist-level appliance reliability standards while retaining the iconic look-and-feel elements. But their focus hasn't been building the best go/stop/turn-with-variations-for-type machine in a long, long time. So they are, in their own way, engineering marvels. It's just that their engineers were given a very different set of requirements than what you would give for "a functional motorcycle". The only other manufacturer I've seen running into the same thing at all is Ducati seeming to possibly run into issues making "90-degree V" and "modern ultraperformance bike" apply to the same vehicle, but there is still a lot of uncertainty about whether that's actually the crux (specifically weight distribution and packaging of a 90-degree V) of the problem in their MotoGP effort.

Yes. Thank you for putting that in perspective.

EvanB wrote:

ST_ZX2 wrote: I am willing to bet there are far more H-D dealers than there are BMW dealers too. My gut tells me that your gut might be in need of recalibration.

You mean H-D apparel shops? I walked into a dealer once and it was just a building full of clothes with a few bikes in the back.

I just got back from an 1100 mile week, and saw several HD dealers. The three that I stopped at (restrooms are clean and they usually have free bottled water) had several bikes on the floor. Hell, one of them even served a free breakfast for the large group I was with.

I didn't see any BMW dealers.

Why don't they use crotch rockets for police use?

EvanB wrote:

ST_ZX2 wrote: I am willing to bet there are far more H-D dealers than there are BMW dealers too. My gut tells me that your gut might be in need of recalibration.

You mean H-D apparel shops? I walked into a dealer once and it was just a building full of clothes with a few bikes in the back.

No, I mean actual dealerships. But I also mean that there is a whole myriad of other industries that support and compliment the Harley-Davidson brand and "lifestyle". Most dealerships sell more than bikes--they have catalogs full of aftermarket parts, and racks full of clothes. There are, I bet, dozens of magazines that cater specifically to the Harley rider. Yes, the word "lifestyle" gets thrown around a lot--but there is truth to it, and especially when it comes to how the H-D "lifestyle" impacts the economy as a whole, suffice it to say it is HUGE.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

Not the ideal bikes for shuffling around in traffic all day, head bent down, weight on wrists, knees folded to full flex...

The BMWs they use around here are sport-tourers; they'd be more than quick enough to catch anybody who wasn't fleeing on a particularly fast vehicle, and civil enough to ride for a full shift every day.

93EXCivic wrote: Why don't they use crotch rockets for police use?

For the same reasons that police don't use Corvettes for duty.

Here's an article about the State Police evaluation, I think the numbers are interesting;

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/10/michigan-state-police-objectively-prove-harleys-suck/

I suspect the performance aspect of a motorcycle depends on the police department's intended use. The highway patrol in Minnesota as well as several of the city police forces in the metro area have motorcycles, but I doubt any of them are used for high speed pursuit - they're more for traffic control and escort, those sorts of things.

Regardless of choice, all of these guys can RIDE.

BMW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOTo2x6vHnY&feature=related

H-D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqRvqw4YXtY&feature=related

As Boomers retire, and start to change their financial priorities, how will HD's strategy change?

Jarod wrote: Owning a Harley is kind of like being Amish. In the ignoring technology kind of way.

You mean a fully injected bike, with ABS and security and excellent resale value and other then internet arguments dead to left reliability. Not to mention all the other stuff from the buell era that trickled down to the Harley stuff.

Motorcycles are not cars they are for 90% riders a extravagance. Its a chance to buy what you want not what you need. Harley does that better then almost any other manufacturer, they flat out know there market better then the rest of the guys.

Heck look at the Honda Fury "chopper", 13K with ABS and more fake plastic chrome then anything. How many did they sell. Even Victory has been unable to sell even 10% of the cruiser market-share.

I just don't understand the appeal to HDs but to each his own.

Aeromoto wrote: Here's how many Harley owners imagine themselves-- and here's reality--

Best part is Brando is riding a Triumph.

Appleseed wrote:

Aeromoto wrote: Here's how many Harley owners imagine themselves-- and here's reality--

Best part is Brando is riding a Triumph.

IIRC Lee Marvin was riding a panhead Harley, though.

I wonder how many posters in this thread have actually owned a modern BMW bike?

I love my 05 k1200s but parts are expensive (very), the dealer networks SUCKS, and the reliability is not on par with what most BMW nuthuggers will lead you to believe.

Also, there is next to no diagnostic info...especially on the canbus, so DIY can be a choir when you do have a problem.

I love the bike, but it is not perfect. Also, I'd love to have a Harley. I'll probaby pick one up in the next year or two. I like variety in my bikes. It will also give me something to ride when the BMW breaks down.

Curmudgeon wrote:

Appleseed wrote:

Aeromoto wrote: Here's how many Harley owners imagine themselves-- and here's reality--

Best part is Brando is riding a Triumph.

IIRC Lee Marvin was riding a panhead Harley, though.

Those aren't real H-D riders. They are wearing different clothes, riding different bikes and appear to not be driving to get ice cream.

I don't get the issue. They tested both and bought the better, cheaper ride.

Perhaps there was some expected entitlement here. I'm glad it worked out in favor of the winner.