More mobile service musings; provider tech specifically

I was on Verizon for a million years.  I liked the coverage, but at the time (2010 and before) they had limited service in Canada and charged me 50 cents per text.

After the divorce I went in with my family (7 of us) on AT&T.  Coverage was fair, but Canadian stuff cost three arms and two legs.

Two years ago I went Google Fi.  Cheap, works in almost 200 countries for free or nearly free.  Terrible coverage.

I had been a bit disappointed with Fi's coverage, but the last few weeks being on vacation with the whole family I had a real eye opener.  We went to several semi-remote locations.  My sister's family is on Verizon.  Mom and Dad are on ATT.  I'm on Fi.  I observed the following subjective things in regards to signal strength:

Farm in WV:
- Verizon, great
- ATT, fair
- Fi, non-existent

Raystown Lake, PA
- Verizon, great
- ATT, non-existent
-Fi, non-existent

Watkins Glen, NY
- Verizon, great
- ATT fair
- Fi fair

Bedford, PA
- V, great
- ATT, great
- Fi, fair

Ontario, Can (middle of nowhere)
- V, poor but some
- ATT, non-existent
- Fi, non-existent

I know now that in all of those situations I had the worst coverage of all the above in those places.  Seems like Fi (since it draws on Tmobile and Sprint) are great in metro areas but suck in the boonies, but they also contract with USCellular which I assumed would fill in the gaps.

My big reason for going Fi was the international stuff since I travel as much as humanly possible.  I was told that CDMA was pretty universal and GSM (verizon) was mostly just US and Canada.  Has that changed?  Is Verizon using CDMA as well now?  Seems like so much has changed and the old single-radio vs dual-radio phones are not the norm anymore.

I'm looking for a provider that is rockstar in the US and works in Canada for free or cheap.  Bonus points if it works in other countries, but not overly terrible if it doesn't.  If I go somewhere like Costa Rica or Hungary, I'll just reactivate my Fi phone for a month for travel.

Raystown you had bad service? Granted I've not been there since 2011, but I had Sprint at the time and it was great. 

I have noticed lately with Fi that my phone seems to be having issues. Me and swmbo are on the same plan with the same phone model.  I will have zero service while she is fine and able to do anything she wants.

I think it's more handset than coverage honestly. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Seems like Fi (since it draws on Tmobile and Sprint) are great in metro areas but suck in the boonies

This makes me want to rant about how laughably bad T-mobile's coverage is anywhere that isn't a major city or highway corridor.  There is no service in a lot of places in MI that I wouldn't really consider "the boonies".  Other than that complaint I've got nothing, sorry.

CDMA is US only, GSM is considered "world band" if you live in the US.  

If its a huge deal, I suggest a mobile booster/repeater running off your vehicle assuming when you are in the sticks you are within reasonable proximity to your vehicle.    Something like this.  https://unidencellular.com/uniden-um50-4g-cellular-booster.html

Regarding international I use Verizon with a "world phone" - Note 10 -  and it works everywhere.  Awesome in Ireland, Mexico, Canada, Dominican Republic.  Cant comment to other locations because I have not been there.  Wife had Fi on the same trips and it was "OK".  There were instances where I would turn on the hotspot on my phone and let her get some internets.  

Unfortunately, cell signal is one those things where "Cheap, Fast, Reliable - Chose 2" definitely applies.  

RevRico said:

I think it's more handset than coverage honestly. 

This. My girlfriend's relatively new iPhone (TMobile) won't have coverage in the same spots my old, busted up Pixel 2 (Fi) will have coverage. 

I'm convinced it's all voodoo and sorcery anyway.

In reply to z31maniac :

That is my problem.  I have an old Pixel 2 on Fi and that is the phone that was getting zero service in those places.

93gsxturbo said:

CDMA is US only, GSM is considered "world band" if you live in the US.  

If its a huge deal, I suggest a mobile booster/repeater running off your vehicle assuming when you are in the sticks you are within reasonable proximity to your vehicle.    Something like this.  https://unidencellular.com/uniden-um50-4g-cellular-booster.html

Regarding international I use Verizon with a "world phone" - Note 10 -  and it works everywhere.  Awesome in Ireland, Mexico, Canada, Dominican Republic.  Cant comment to other locations because I have not been there.  Wife had Fi on the same trips and it was "OK".  There were instances where I would turn on the hotspot on my phone and let her get some internets.  

 

Unfortunately, cell signal is one those things where "Cheap, Fast, Reliable - Chose 2" definitely applies.  

Ok... guess I had the protocols reversed.

You mentioned the world phone on Verizon.  My concern with that is cost.  My largest bill with Fi was when I was in Costa Rica using lots of data and that bill was $44.17.  I don't use a ton of data.  My largest data usage in the last two years was 1.81 GB.

I want something that gets service.  I need phone and text.  Data I can always wait for wifi.

So I guess this begs the question.... if it's the handset and not the service, how do I fix the problem?  I usually buy a phone every 2-3 years and I've had this Pixel for 2.5 years, but I don't want to buy a $400 phone to check if it gets better reception, especially because it might be a year until I visit those vacation spots again.

I'm looking at basically figuring out Fi which costs me an average of $35/mo, or going with a Verizon prepaid and paying through the anus (without lube) for Canada... as in, according to their website, it would cost me about $150/mo to use it in Canada.

As 93gsxturbo said, CDMA is a "US special".

One thing to keep in mind with T-Mobile is that especially in rural areas they seem to be using band 71 a lot, and not that many phones seem to support it. I suspect that my coverage here in the not-quite-boonies would benefit massively from a phone that supported this relatively new band. Which of course means a relatively new phone.

Is there a way to research this?  Like a map that shows band 71 (or shows you what bands are in use) and a website that shows what phones support it?

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I don't think they break out band 71 specifically. Some Android phones can run software that shows you what bands you're currently using, but that would require a phone that uses band 71 already for you to see it.

You can usually Google <phone model> band 71 or somesuch, plus T-Mobile has a list of Extended Range compatible phones here: https://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/lte-band-compatible-devices

IIRC band 71 is the 600MHz spectrum.

The frustrating part is that I just did a quick search for "pixel 2 band 71" and got complete 50/50 split on whether or not it supports that band, so I can't even get a straight answer on one band from one provider on one phone.  I can't imagine what that research would be like if I had to do them all.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I think the Pixel 2 answer is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/74usdf/tmobile_band71_support_pixel_2xl/do4kw49/

No official support for 600MHz bands.

Pretty much all phones that support 600MHz and thus band 71 are pretty new. For example, neither one of my two phones (iPhone X and Essential PH-1) support Band 71 yet and I'd have to upgrade them to newer models to get support for it.

So when the introduce the new bands (and the phones that support them), do they drop the old bands rendering older phones less useful?

When I say it that way, it makes sense to force you to buy a new phone, but I guess I'm asking... if that's what they do, why cripple service and take the PR hit when they already transmit those older bands?

I remember dad having to upgrade his flip phone because ATT announced they were stopping 2GLTE, but that took nearly 15 years.  I can get why they stopped 2G because I think my dad was the only person left with a 2G flip phone on the planet.

Curtis,

  Your choice on the Verizon network doesn't just stop at Verizon.  There are 3rd party providers (called MVNO Mobile Virtual Network Operator ) that operate on top of the Big 3/4 towers.  They usually come in at a lower overall cost than the big providers, are more flexible about what you get in your plans (including international rates), but you might have some limits in the ultimate upper end of speeds (you'll have fast, but maybe not the absolute fastest speeds) and in areas where Verizon has negotiated roaming agreements, the MVNO might not.

Examples of Verizon MVNO's:

Total Wireless

Xfinity Wireless

Ting

Tracfone

Straight Talk

Plus others.

We've been on a Total Wireless plan for my wife and 3 boys for about 2 years now.  $100/month - 4 lines, 100GB/month of high speed data for all 4 (2G speed after that until the month is up), Unlimted Text/Calls.  We used to pay $80/mnth for just my wife and I when we had candybar phones on Verizon.  It drops to $95 if we have automatic payment on the credit card.  It would be $35 for 5GB single line plan with unlimited text/calls.  They may also have international plans.  But if you are using a verizon sim/phone outside of the US, coverage will be spoty at best.

The "world phones", and you can get them for Verizon networks, have the radios that support both CDMA and GSM networks.  What is great about those is if you are traveling internationally, you could just go buy a SIM on a local GSM provider and get service for the time you are there and throw it away when you leave.  Then drop your US sim back in when you get home.

Re: Old Bands

Depending on what the FCC approves of, what licenses/bands the provider has, they may choose to "re-farm" their spectrum to enable newer service on bands that have better coverage in buildings, or retiring older equipment on the towers, etc.  That is why your dad had to give up his old flip phone.  An example:  The phone companies are shutting down the tech that supported voice calls on the 3G networks.  Now voice is being done with VoLTE (Voice over LTE).  If your phone doesn't support that, you can't use it anymore.  Also, band in the 700-800 MHz range can get through things like leaves, walls, etc. while the 5GHz and higher bands can't.  They have more bandwidth available in 5GHz+, but it can be blocked by the trees.  So, they take away the 3G service that was running at the lower bands to get more coverage, but at slower speeds.

Right from Google itself for the Pixel 2

• GSM/EDGE: Quad-band (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)
• UMTS/HSPA+/HSDPA: Bands 1/2/4/5/8
• CDMA EVDO Rev A: BC0/BC1/BC10
• FDD-LTE : Bands 1^*/2^*/3^*/4^*/5/7^*/8/12/13/17/20/25/26/28/29/30/32/66^*
• TD-LTE: Bands 38^*/40/41

^* Indicates the bands that support 4x4 MIMO

https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/7158570?hl=en

You could also use this site

https://willmyphonework.net/

One more thing about the MVNO's.  They are pay as you go.  Sign up for one, try it out and see if you get decent coverage in the areas you are having some problems.  If its not a good fit, you can be done at the end of the month and walk away.  You could even just by a card with like $10-20 and the SIM and just try it out before committing to a fully featured plan.  The money cards are just $0.XX/minute or text or MB.  Lets you try it out without committing to a month's service.

Good Luck

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Disclaimer: I worked 14 yrs in middle management in the cell phone industry, but...that ended 8 yrs ago so I am outdated.  

As for your coverages and what worked where; your experiences aligned with my expectations.  

As for Canada, it used to be widely know (when I was in the industry) that Canada has one of the highest consumer cell call cost in the world.  A partial reason for this is lots of geography to cover and so much of it is little population so therefore little return on infrastructure investment.

Canuck coverage by Canuck carriers to Canuck customers:

Telus

Rogers

Bell Mobility

If there is no coverage then no one, not even Canadians, get call there.  

In reply to Wxdude10 - Mike :

So it looks like the Pixel 2 doesn't have either the 600 or the 700 MHz band, both of which are pretty important for the the T-Mobile Extended Range LTE.

In reply to BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) :

Yeah.  The Pixel 2 was released in Oct 2017, but they were talking about it already in March 2017.  T-Mobile won the auction for the 600 MHz spectrum in April 2017 and only announced they would be rolling it out in June 2017.  Time lines didn't match up to have radios chips with those bands in time.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

93gsxturbo said:

CDMA is US only, GSM is considered "world band" if you live in the US.  

If its a huge deal, I suggest a mobile booster/repeater running off your vehicle assuming when you are in the sticks you are within reasonable proximity to your vehicle.    Something like this.  https://unidencellular.com/uniden-um50-4g-cellular-booster.html

Regarding international I use Verizon with a "world phone" - Note 10 -  and it works everywhere.  Awesome in Ireland, Mexico, Canada, Dominican Republic.  Cant comment to other locations because I have not been there.  Wife had Fi on the same trips and it was "OK".  There were instances where I would turn on the hotspot on my phone and let her get some internets.  

 

Unfortunately, cell signal is one those things where "Cheap, Fast, Reliable - Chose 2" definitely applies.  

Ok... guess I had the protocols reversed.

You mentioned the world phone on Verizon.  My concern with that is cost.  My largest bill with Fi was when I was in Costa Rica using lots of data and that bill was $44.17.  I don't use a ton of data.  My largest data usage in the last two years was 1.81 GB.

I want something that gets service.  I need phone and text.  Data I can always wait for wifi.

Boosters not an option?  Lots of people swear by them.  Of course if there is truly NO signal, it doesnt matter what phone or provider or booster you have.  

Regarding the cost, ya gotta pay to play.  

https://www.verizon.com/support/international-travel-faqs/

Keep in mind you can pay as you go on international plans on Verizon.  Unless you are in Canada for a month at a throw, $5 a day isnt bad, or you can buy a whole month for $15 for 100mb or $25 for 1GB of data.  At some point its easier to just pay the man and not mess with other SIMs, different numbers, google voice forwarding, burner phones,etc.  

When the wife and I went to Ireland, it was $10/day for my Verizon phone to work everywhere.  So I spent $140 to have it work everywhere, have the same number for important calls, have a nice device I was familiar with, and it worked the second I stepped off the plane.  Coverage was phenomenal, google maps worked exceptionally well.  Considering what we spent on airfair, food, drink, and lodging, a cell phone was small potatos.  

93gsxturbo said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

93gsxturbo said:

CDMA is US only, GSM is considered "world band" if you live in the US.  

If its a huge deal, I suggest a mobile booster/repeater running off your vehicle assuming when you are in the sticks you are within reasonable proximity to your vehicle.    Something like this.  https://unidencellular.com/uniden-um50-4g-cellular-booster.html

Regarding international I use Verizon with a "world phone" - Note 10 -  and it works everywhere.  Awesome in Ireland, Mexico, Canada, Dominican Republic.  Cant comment to other locations because I have not been there.  Wife had Fi on the same trips and it was "OK".  There were instances where I would turn on the hotspot on my phone and let her get some internets.  

 

Unfortunately, cell signal is one those things where "Cheap, Fast, Reliable - Chose 2" definitely applies.  

Ok... guess I had the protocols reversed.

You mentioned the world phone on Verizon.  My concern with that is cost.  My largest bill with Fi was when I was in Costa Rica using lots of data and that bill was $44.17.  I don't use a ton of data.  My largest data usage in the last two years was 1.81 GB.

I want something that gets service.  I need phone and text.  Data I can always wait for wifi.

Boosters not an option?  Lots of people swear by them.  Of course if there is truly NO signal, it doesnt matter what phone or provider or booster you have.  

Regarding the cost, ya gotta pay to play.  

https://www.verizon.com/support/international-travel-faqs/

Keep in mind you can pay as you go on international plans on Verizon.  Unless you are in Canada for a month at a throw, $5 a day isnt bad, or you can buy a whole month for $15 for 100mb or $25 for 1GB of data.  At some point its easier to just pay the man and not mess with other SIMs, different numbers, google voice forwarding, burner phones,etc.  

When the wife and I went to Ireland, it was $10/day for my Verizon phone to work everywhere.  So I spent $140 to have it work everywhere, have the same number for important calls, have a nice device I was familiar with, and it worked the second I stepped off the plane.  Coverage was phenomenal, google maps worked exceptionally well.  Considering what we spent on airfair, food, drink, and lodging, a cell phone was small potatos.  

 

Boosters not an option.  I might take one of three vehicles and my needs for phone or text rarely happen when I'm in or near a car.  I might take the motorcycle and a tent to the woods and hike 3 miles away from the car for a week, or I might go out on the lake in a boat for the day.  Or maybe leave camp for a day and go to town.

Normally (in non-covid times) I spend up to 2 months in Canada, so the $5/day would end up costing me about $300 on Verizon unless I pay for the international plan year round which would cost even more.  That's one of the most attractive things about Fi - I can travel to Egypt, Japan, or Argentina and the phone works transparently on the same $20/mo.  (not that I frequent those places, but nice to know I can).

Wxdude10 - Mike said:

Curtis,

  Your choice on the Verizon network doesn't just stop at Verizon.  There are 3rd party providers (called MVNO Mobile Virtual Network Operator ) that operate on top of the Big 3/4 towers.  They usually come in at a lower overall cost than the big providers, are more flexible about what you get in your plans (including international rates), but you might have some limits in the ultimate upper end of speeds (you'll have fast, but maybe not the absolute fastest speeds) and in areas where Verizon has negotiated roaming agreements, the MVNO might not.

I have looked into MVNO in the past.  At least during the times I investigated them, they had a tendency to negotiate with the towers in metro areas which was one of the reasons they could stay cheaper than including the coverage in rural areas where the profit wasn't there.  Renting towers that pay for themselves every day is cheaper than renting towers in the boonies that will never pay for themselves.   That may have changed.  They are still less expensive options, but unless something has changed a lot, they likely won't offer signal in the places I like to haunt.

Wxdude10 - Mike said:

In reply to BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) :

Yeah.  The Pixel 2 was released in Oct 2017, but they were talking about it already in March 2017.  T-Mobile won the auction for the 600 MHz spectrum in April 2017 and only announced they would be rolling it out in June 2017.  Time lines didn't match up to have radios chips with those bands in time.

So it looks like what I should really be doing is researching the current Fi bands as well as the newer phones they offer.  Possibly even compare my Pixel 2's radio to maybe get a subjective guess of whether or not a newer phone would help my issue.

I recall at the time I began on Fi that I thought the coverage was very good, but that could have been the "new sneakers make me run faster" effect.

Wxdude10 - Mike said:

If its not a good fit, you can be done at the end of the month and walk away.  You could even just by a card with like $10-20 and the SIM and just try it out before committing to a fully featured plan.  The money cards are just $0.XX/minute or text or MB.  Lets you try it out without committing to a month's service.

Good Luck

That is actually something I have considered, however I would need a new phone.  My Pixel has no sim.... well, it has a virtual sim that is a harware/software component of the phone itself.  There is no sim slot on the phone -internal or external.  In my shopping, I'm seeing that fewer and fewer phones have that capability.  I have a couple older Galaxy phones that I could use to test VNO things, but as I'm learning in this thread that might not be a very scientific test.  Not sure a Galaxy S3 or S5 would be compatible with many of the bands out there today.