Moving to Europe

Any GRMers permanently moved from  America to Europe before?

The last two weeks I've been digging into countries that would allow me to semi-retire at the ripe age of 40. I've zeroed in on Spain, specifically Valencia. The wife and I have enough money to take advantage of the "golden visa" program that they offer, plus enough savings that we could take 7-8 years before we're forced to find a job there.

The most common complaints from ex-pats seem to be: glacial bureaucracy, difficulty finding a job, coupled with general loneliness/difficulty making friends. I've seen an odd boomerang phenomenon where ex-pats live in Spain for 2-3 years, get lonely, move back, then pine for Spain and end up moving to Spain once again.

 Curious to hear from other people that have done this, specifically difficulties you encountered, what a realistic monthly budget is, what you would do differently, etc.

I liked Portugal  more than Spain ,

But they are both countries with a Sea coast that gets too many Drunken tourists .

I would research what area looks good for what you want to do and spend a month there before deciding.

Good luck

Following... once my kids have left my house. We are out of this country. 
 

hoping to get my kids into European colleges for the low cost as well. 

Speaking generally:

As someone who has been an "expat" for most of his life, the reality with most countries is "you can never be one of us".  Few countries outside of NA are accommodating to newcomers as far as the language is concerned.

That said, it has been a good life.

I thought everyone was moving to Canada...

stroker said:

I thought everyone was moving to Canada...

I want better weather than Canada can provide.  But I guess it's hard to get worse than Minnesota. 

I have been putting some serious thought towards the Netherlands.  I like how they take their sailing and bicycling very seriously.  I know it gets full of German tourists in summer, but I can deal with that.

From what I understand Portugal is actively trying to court expats to come there and start businesses.  We have several friends, all in their mid 50's who are planning.  One is taking her small batch baking extracts business in a few months. Others are planning small cafes and the like.

I have lived in Spain, Argentina, and the UK. 

I lived in Madrid for 6 months studying Spanish, but have spent a fair amount of time in Valencia. My wife's family live in Barcelona. I don't know you, so I don't know what your interests or needs are, but I would highly suggest you go spend at least a month there before you move. Or better yet, spend a month multiple times at different parts of the year (Winter and summer for example). 

Things I liked about Spain: better weather than most of Europe, less of an "efficient" culture as compared to the US or UK. People did not work hard, that was my projection at least, it was a great place to be a student because of the night life culture (lots of partying). This was 20 years ago now though and I don't think I would enjoy that now. People eat late, stay out late, etc.

Things I did not like: Less of an "efficient" culture, meaning it would take weeks to renew my metro pass because the kiosk would simply not be open, or they wouldn't have the stamp to renew the pass, or or or, for weeks. It got annoying for someone who is used to efficiency. I hated the food. Like really hated it. I have never had worse paella in my entire life than in Spain. The jamon serrano can be good, and so can the churros, but so often things were so, so bland. I know this is not the reputation, but I know multiple people who have lived there that agree. The general culture is not warm. It's nothing like Mexico culture where people are warm and welcoming (in my experience). People almost never invited me to their home or were warm. I did have a Spanish friend who I had met in the US, and he was warm, but it wasn't like "Hola amigo," like it is in other places. Racism. My Spanish friend married a Mexican and she has told me that she often receives racist comments. 

Valencia is a city on the coast, and it is larger than I would like for retirement, but that's just me. I liked it pretty well as far as Spanish cities go. You will likely see a barrage of drunken British tourists though. It's not pretty. But that is most coastal areas in Spain. 

I hear a lot of people from the US are moving to Portugal right now. I would take a look there, probably before Spain. But that might just be because I have not been to Portugal. I hear the culture is a bit warmer than Spain.

I agree that the lonely ex-pat thing is real. I felt super isolated and miserable when I was in Spain, Argentina, and the UK even (though much less than the others). The language is hard to crack (harder than Mexican Spanish for example) and there is also a strong dialect in Valencia, IIRC. I just wanted to go home after 6 months and hang out with people I could connect with. People bashed the US to my face all the time. It got old. This was back in 2003 when the war with Iraq was going on. I was not in support of the war, but I got tired of answering dumb questions. Very hard to have a nuanced conversation for a lot of reasons (language being one). 

The boomerang phenomenon is very much a thing.  Small quirks become BIG irritations after a while, everything is different here and sometimes you're just tired and don't want to deal with it anymore, and time dulls the senses to the things that brought you away from home in the first place.  Traveling back is expensive and everyone seems to have big reasons for you to need to be back in person, but you only have the "come visit me in SPAIN" to get people out to you.  We moved back (from Hungary) after our first four years, bought our dream house in Tacoma, made some of the most amazing friends, and thought "well, that was  nice"...

... and made it about a year and a half before we started scheming of ways to get back any way we could.

We've been back in Hungary for three years, and out of country again for two years beyond that, and have no plans to move back as of this writing.  

We've visited the northern coast of Spain (where I think I'd be most likely to call "home") and loved it...  to visit.  There's something about it though that's keeping me from moving there permanently.  No idea what it is, but I will second what others have said about Portugal (much to my surprise).  I will also say that the food in Spain was overrated (not something that was an issue in Portugal).

Here's what I think I can offer while I drink my coffee:

Glacial bureaucracy is hardly specific to Spain.  Yes, it's paperwork, and it sucks that you signed here instead of there and have to do that one again, but give yourself time for such things.  Start well in advance and know that this is not the middle east.  When you have things done correctly, you will get the expected outcome.

General loneliness is very much a thing if you let it.  Adopting the local culture, language, and customs is a good way to meet people.  Your hobbies are another.  Find common ground and meet one or two people who have the same interests.  You're going to have to work at it from there and it's going to take some time.  You're also not going to like everyone you meet.  

Your budget is what I've been dreaming of and working towards for the last 6 years (I'm 40).  I have plans/strategies place that may or may not be viable options for you.  I've also learned a bit through some mistakes we've made.  Not all of it is going to be relevant to what you're doing but maybe there are some soundbites in there you can use.  Feel free to PM me if you thought I might be able to help with anything.

Edit:  This was posted at the same time as CyberEric.  I had no idea that simply  getting things stamped could take so long... also, being "american" is a point of interest here as we're relatively rare.  Sounds like that might be different in places where we're a more common sight.

Sort of a side note from a European that has worked quite a lot with Spanish and Portuguese people.

The main reason "nobody" invites someone home is according to my colleagues that basically nobody in the cities have enough space to have people over - to "entertain" as I hear it in the US. That's why everybody is out all the time (also a big difference from Sweden where we generally bring people home more).

Another thing about Spain or Portugal - I would never consider moving there unless I knew the language (or was prepared to learn, preferably in advance). Handling more administrative tasks often demand the national language.

That is usually much different in countries like the Netherlands or Sweden. But the climate is not as nice and the Netherlands is quite crowded.

Gustaf

About once a year swimbo gets the Urge to go back to Rødby. One of these days I'm just gonna say berk it and go.

Almost went to La Maddalena just as Bush 1 did a bunch of Gov't down sizing; the offer was rescinded.

The loneliness will be key.  My wife and I moved to Seattle. She couldn't find the right tribe of people to hang out with and we left in less than 3 years.  

I chose Spain initially due to a combination of weather, low cost of living, (relatively)  cheap golden visa, and the fact that Spanish is the only foreign language I've ever studied. I'm far from fluent, but at least I would have a base from which to build on. 

My initial plan was to sell off our house and use most of the proceeds to buy two small condos in Spain. Now I'm thinking that renting it out would be the smarter play. It would provide more rental income with possibly less hassle while leaving the door open for us to return to the U.S. if we wanted.

I'll look into  Portugal, the language barrier there is pretty daunting, but my wife is a gigantic foodie and if the food sucks in Spain, it's gonna be short-lived. Oddly enough we experienced the  same blandness of food while we were in Italy for a month.

The "learning the language" part is pretty important, especially if you're going to live in a more rural place. The areas where the Brits have/had a lot of vacation homes and that are still somewhat diminished Brit expat enclaves tend to have a fair number of English speakers, but in general in Spain/France/Portugal/Italy, you tend to find fewer people who are fluent in English. And the general approach of at least being able to speak a rough approximation of the language is generally appreciated everywhere.

As mentioned further up, Portugal is actively courting immigrants (sorry, expats) via a "golden visa", so it tends to be one of the easier EU countries to establish residence in. Downside of that is that a bunch of Brits are buying up property there now because they either got themselves kicked out of Spain or can't get residence in Spain, which has had an impact on property prices in both Spain and Portugal.

Oh, and especially in Spain - make sure your paperwork is in order. While the cops there aren't specifically looking, they know they've still got a bunch of Brit "expats" living there who conveniently forgot to register with the authorities (even after BrexE36 M3) and apply for residency as a tax saving measure and if they come across them, they politely get sent back to 'er Majesty' finest island. You don't want to be confused with one of them.

Regarding renting out your house in the US - make sure it does make financial sense as well, as you will likely have to have a property manager for it unless you fancy flying back from Spain every time the toilet clogs. I initially did that with my house in the UK and it's a bit a pain in the posterior. Ended up selling the house, but for different reasons.

Oh, and as to being accepted by the locals - there are different levels of "accepted", you have to figure out which level you're comfortable with.

For example, my mum has lived in a mountain village in Switzerland for a few decades now and is about as well integrated as you can be. That's a place where the "newcomers" have only been living for a couple of hundred years (well, their families), so even if you speak the local language (which my mum does, fluently), you'll never fully be one of them. Doesn't mean she doesn't have good friends there amongst the locals and is considered 90% "one of them".

Psychologically speaking, the "acceptance" thing isn't a huge deal. I can appreciate the local art/cuisine/culture without having to be woven into the fabric of it. I've typically only had 2 close friends throughout my life, and most of the time they've been geographically quite distant. If I'm able to make 1 ex-pat friend wherever we land, that'll be more than enough.

Tangentially related: Has anyone relocated pets across the ocean? Oddly, this seems to be one of the biggest initial challenges. We have two 40lb dogs. They're too big to fly in the cabin and the wife absolutely refuses to put them in the cargo hold of a plane. Specialty shipping services are $4000-5000 per dog, and apparently there's only one cruise ship that allows animals. It departs NY->England and apparently the kennels book up way in advance. We refuse to relocate without the pups...it's an odd stumbling block, but I try to account for all the angles ahead of time. Any advice?

I would also suggest looking into Croatia as a possibility. I've only heard great things. The language might be more of an issue than Spain though.

I loved living in Germany, and language was not a barrier there. You're not going to be saving money though, and they're not going out of their way to court people to immigrate. Sleepy little wine country towns along the Rhine are gorgeous, and would make getting to the Nurburgring easy...

Just some fuel for fire.  https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/vcrq26/oc_cost_of_a_4h_surgery_and_a_1_week_hospital/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
 

cost of a 4 hour surgery and 1 week in hospital in Italy. 53 euro. 
 

pyramid scheme here. 

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Yup. My mom had a long illness before  she passed away. The outrageous expenses and mediocre level of care in the U.S. absolutely played a part in our decision. 

There were a lot of old cars in Portugal ,  and very little in Spain,

Spain had a local content law , if not built/assembled in Spain there was a big import duty, 

So you had Seat that was Fiat and then got bought by VW , and Renault plus Mercedes trucks , 

Portugal was poor and got a lot of hand me down cars from Germany and France ,  there was a lot of aircooled VWs that you could see were ex German used cars.

Also if you are in the North of Spain you would see a lot of crazy French driving , they were really Portuguese workers with jobs in France  and driving home for the weekend.

This was all years ago ,  I had a great time there , but I am also happy being with myself  and listing to the BBC ,  feet up and a cold drink :)

therealpinto said:

Sort of a side note from a European that has worked quite a lot with Spanish and Portuguese people.

The main reason "nobody" invites someone home is according to my colleagues that basically nobody in the cities have enough space to have people over - to "entertain" as I hear it in the US. That's why everybody is out all the time (also a big difference from Sweden where we generally bring people home more).

Another thing about Spain or Portugal - I would never consider moving there unless I knew the language (or was prepared to learn, preferably in advance). Handling more administrative tasks often demand the national language.

That is usually much different in countries like the Netherlands or Sweden. But the climate is not as nice and the Netherlands is quite crowded.

Gustaf

I looked into that.  Climate in the Netherlands does not look too different from where I am.  Also, I am from NJ where we have over 1200 people per square mile. (448 per square kilometer), I think I can deal with the Netherlands' 1300 per square mile. I would also be looking to the Zealand Province.  Less population, more water.

So my great grandmother was Irish.  My dad did tbt research to be a member of the friendly sons of saint patrick. Apparently that's good enough for citizenship. 
 

edit bad info. Ireland only does grandparent now. But Poland does great grandparent.  It's like 900 euro and you get an eu passport. 

In reply to Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) :

PM'd, though I know the PM system  here is  wonky