Occupy.... the Simthsonian?

tuna55 wrote: Dude, really? You're smarter than this.

Snowdoggie wrote: I am liking Bachman more than the rest of them. She is actually a tax lawyer and smarter than Palin. (who is not running for anything) She got in a few good shots on Perry about the big corporate money he is getting. She is the tea party candidate Says who? I have been to a few rallies, and she isn't my candidate. If anyone on stage is tea party related it would be Ron Paul. and it is strange that she is losing to the big money establishment guys. The corporate media is ignoring her. Well this much is true. They hand picked Obama over Clinton and they are trying very hard to pick Romney, but Cain keeps winning polls. I just have a funny feeling that when all is said and done, Romney will be the nominee. agreed but I really really hope not. Those backroom deals have already been made. Romney is the Wall Street guy, not the Tea Party guy. He is the Wall Street Protestor's worst nightmare. Cain does sound like a Baptist minister, but he is just a guy who started a successful pizza chain. He may be another Ross Perot. Good at business when he can give the orders. Not so good at compromise as far as getting a tax plan through Congress, and he is too new at this to not put his foot in his mouth somewhere before the voting starts.

Ron Paul? Talk about a guy who has been ignored by the corporate media. I have seen Ron Paul supporters at both Tea Party rallies and at Occupy Dallas. Those guys are everywhere and you never hear about them on TV.

I still think that Mitt Romney will be the nominee. He has the big money and campagn organization. Wall Street and the heavy hitters want him. Sure, they will let the Tea Party people shout and hold up signs, but after they get everybody excited, then they will reel them back in and tell them to vote for the guy who will make the fewest changes. Then it will be a matter of how many Republicans stay home from the polls because they hate Romney vs. how many Democrats stay home because they hate Obama.

I think its time for a third party candidate to step up, if only as a protest vote.

In reply to Snowdoggie:

Ralph Nader might show up as a third party candidate. Ralph Nader anyone? See? Things could always be worse.

The news came on showing these protests this morning and I thought it was the middle east. Then they said New York. Oh boy. And no, I'm not complacent about who's behind it all.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-boston-protesters-spit-on-coast-guard-member-20111013

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/11/occupy-l-a-speaker-violence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to Snowdoggie: Ralph Nader might show up as a third party candidate. Ralph Nader anyone? See? Things could always be worse.

Don't get the Corvair guys here upset. I'm warning you.

http://news.yahoo.com/denver-police-move-wall-street-protest-area-105117947.html

Looks like Denver already shut their protest down.

Otto Maddox wrote: .....Ralph Nader anyone?....

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Fletch1 wrote: The news came on showing these protests this morning and I thought it was the middle east. Then they said New York. Oh boy. And no, I'm not complacent about who's behind it all. http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-boston-protesters-spit-on-coast-guard-member-20111013 http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/11/occupy-l-a-speaker-violence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/

It's interesting that the speaker in the second link has a pronounced accent. Did he come to the US in search of freedom or to promote violence?

On a similar note, we now have reports of escalating confrontations in NYC:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-14/wall-street-protesters-arrested-after-park-closing-postponed.html

The mayor is po'd because of alleged intimidaiton by pro-protest politicians who pressured the park owner who had planned a clean-up to clear trash and debris:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/protest_park_cleanup_could_still_NgRHA6mcsXUEsfhH7KKqOO

If the allegations are true, said politicos might be hoisted on their petards come the next election.

They made their point. Probably about time to go home.

I do understand why people are pissed though. I mean I know when I enter college everyone was saying there will plenty of demand for engineers and that there was a shortage of engineers. Then during my time in college tuition (at my university) went up like 25%-35% (which caused some people to go into debt even if not a large amount) and we all graduated and now half my classmates in engineering are sitting around going where are all the jobs and working at fast food restaurants or they have to try to find a graduate school (not a bad thing). It isn't like we went to school for some useless degree. I feel lucky that I got the job I have now.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

There has to be more to the protests than that. Lots of people graduate in a bad job market. It happens every business cycle. It happened to me. I worked in a warehouse for a year or so and then I went back to graduate school.

Sombody knocked over a police scooter. The NYPD has Vespas?

Maybe it was more like this -

First of all, if the Boston story is true (notice, I said "if") who spits on the Coast Guard? "Screw you people who go out in tiny little boats in horrific storms to try to save people!" Guess they didn't have the stones to spit on a Marine.

And with that out of the way, here' the real problem I see with this whole thing: its only the tip of the iceberg. Personally, it appears the protests are about a growing sense of entitlement (which is seems like about 50% would agree with, 50% wouldn't). What's more, there really seems to be a seething/explosive undercurrent to them. I could be wrong about both impressions. IF, however, both of those impressions are correct, I can see us as a country being in for a world of hurt here shortly. You see, while politicians of BOTH PARTIES have been merrily wringing up the "charge it to the taxpayers" credit card, they've done two things. First, they've given people the impression that it is the job of government to provide for their food, housing & education. Second, they continued to roll up debt in amounts that will very soon exceed our ability to repay. Merely servicing that debt will require more and more of the government's net tax receipts at a time when citizens expect more in terms of services from the government. Its simply unsustainable. What happens if the holders of that debt (foreign and domestic) decide the U.S. government is not longer a good credit risk? (See, for example, our recently lost AAA credit rating) And if you think people are upset about government not changing things the way they are now, how will they react when things they take for granted (lets say, federally guaranteed student loans, for example) have to be withdrawn because the money simply isn't there.

You know that in order to cause a ruckus you need to have a Ruckus...

kazoospec wrote: First of all, if the Boston story is true (notice, I said "if") who spits on the Coast Guard? "Screw you people who go out in tiny little boats in horrific storms to try to save people!" Guess they didn't have the stones to spit on a Marine. And with that out of the way, here' the real problem I see with this whole thing: its only the tip of the iceberg. Personally, it appears the protests are about a growing sense of entitlement (which is seems like about 50% would agree with, 50% wouldn't). What's more, there really seems to be a seething/explosive undercurrent to them. I could be wrong about both impressions. IF, however, both of those impressions are correct, I can see us as a country being in for a world of hurt here shortly. You see, while politicians of BOTH PARTIES have been merrily wringing up the "charge it to the taxpayers" credit card, they've done two things. First, they've given people the impression that it is the job of government to provide for their food, housing & education. Second, they continued to roll up debt in amounts that will very soon exceed our ability to repay. Merely servicing that debt will require more and more of the government's net tax receipts at a time when citizens expect more in terms of services from the government. Its simply unsustainable. What happens if the holders of that debt (foreign and domestic) decide the U.S. government is not longer a good credit risk? (See, for example, our recently lost AAA credit rating) And if you think people are upset about government not changing things the way they are now, how will they react when things they take for granted (lets say, federally guaranteed student loans, for example) have to be withdrawn because the money simply isn't there.

...and to think that Mitt Romney was talking about building more battleships to send to China to mess with them using money we borrow from China. Do you think China will pull our credit card over that?

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: There has to be more to the protests than that. Lots of people graduate in a bad job market. It happens every business cycle. It happened to me. I worked in a warehouse for a year or so and then I went back to graduate school.

It's been an unusually bad job market though; I think that may account for part of it. Then there's a couple companies that received government bailouts that managed to act in ways that made people wonder why we didn't just say, "We've got a program for you already; it's called Chapter 7." And a couple provocateurs like Adbusters.

Plus, with a couple not really related protests in the Middle East and Europe making the news, some people may have had protest envy.

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to DILYSI Dave: This isn't a stereotype. I'm very familiar with the process of becoming an ordained minister. Methodists, Lutherans and most other protestants have stringent requirements. Most prefer a university undergraduate degree with a masters degree from a divinity program or seminary. Baptists generally just require you to "feel a calling" to become ordained. Some have education, some don't. (I don't see where Cain has any religious degree). Generally, you submit your request to your church and they either ordain you or not. Baptists don't have a authoritative governing body, so each church can basically make up their own rules. I didn't mean to offend. But those are the facts.

Not offended at all. You're right. I was just referencing the fact that there's about a million "Reverend -insert name here- " black guys out there.

This is interesting...

Despite their problems with “the establishment”, attorneys for the group had nothing but good things to say about Dallas city attorneys. The two sides worked together on a deal that allows the protest to continue.

“They want the group to be able to express themselves legally and properly and we’ve gotten nothing but cooperation up until this point and we really appreciate that very much,” said Occupy Dallas attorney Cameron Gray.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/10/14/occupy-dallas-can-continue-downtown-protest/

Nobody here is throwing trash cans or crapping on police cars. I work downtown and drive past their camp every day and have seen nothing violent or destructive. Just a bunch of tents and a few bored police officers.

Is it wrong that at this point the only sympathy I have is towards the multi million dollar real estate group that owns the park they are living in? They've gone a month without calling in fire hoses and dogs and in the end when these idiots all have pneumonia they will end up getting sued for not providng heat and chicken soup. The "Wall Street Fat Cats" are not being inconvenienced, they still get to and from the heliport without issue, but the poor guy who works at Mickey D's ends up getting to work late so these kids can exersize their God given right to block traffic. Then they have to listen to how they sold out to the man by running his evil corporate McFlurry machine, and that the bathroom in said evil store is out of TP. One of my friend's kids is down there. He has a degree in language(huh?). He just turned down a job at a suoermarket for $14/hr plus benefits. He feels someone with his education is worth far more. What does he think people make starting out? My wife is running her dept at a a state hospital for about $18/hr.

Well, at least now there's a plan they can get behind: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/14/rep-jesse-jackson-calls-on-government-to-hire-all-unemployed-americans-for/

Don't care what they call it, this is pure and simple socialism. It still amazes me that with a century of evidence that this can't, doesn't and won't work there are still people foisting this garbage.

A lot of Gov't workers dont make $40,000 a year, so won't they quit to try and get one of those higher paying jobs? He might need another couple of billion.

Wally wrote: A lot of Gov't workers dont make $40,000 a year, so won't they quit to try and get one of those higher paying jobs? He might need another couple of billion.

Its not just gov't workers really. I mean why would anyone flip burgers, change oil, work a farm, do construction labor, etc., etc., etc. when you could sit on your ever widening backside, watch Jerry and collect 40K a year? The stupidity of this entitlement craze is just beyond me.

Wally wrote: Is it wrong that at this point the only sympathy I have is towards the multi million dollar real estate group that owns the park they are living in? They've gone a month without calling in fire hoses and dogs and in the end when these idiots all have pneumonia they will end up getting sued for not providng heat and chicken soup. The "Wall Street Fat Cats" are not being inconvenienced, they still get to and from the heliport without issue, but the poor guy who works at Mickey D's ends up getting to work late so these kids can exersize their God given right to block traffic. Then they have to listen to how they sold out to the man by running his evil corporate McFlurry machine, and that the bathroom in said evil store is out of TP. One of my friend's kids is down there. He has a degree in language(huh?). He just turned down a job at a suoermarket for $14/hr plus benefits. He feels someone with his education is worth far more. What does he think people make starting out? My wife is running her dept at a a state hospital for about $18/hr.

I talked to a kid (early 20's) at the Challenge last year who was complaining about the evil republicans, his evil boss, etc. He did not know who the vice president was. He was making $70,000 dollars a year. This was his first job. The Canexican and I briefly considered drowning him in the hot tub and taking his wallet. The smart play would've been to call his boss and say "I'm smarter than this kid, show up on time, work harder than he does, and I'll work for $10k/year less."

I saw this in the paper this morning, and thought it might be relevant to the conversation:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/13/usa-economy-jobs-idUSN1E79B23O20111013

And just as an aside, its a problem in Canada too. I know an Irishman who has been here for many years who owns a construction supply company, who is actively recruiting and importing Irish tradesmen.

• U.S. manufacturers struggle to attract skilled workers

• Shortfall in computer, math and science training

• Siemens has more than 3,000 jobs open

• Study sees a shortage of up 1.5 mln workers in 2020

By Lucia Mutikani

WASHINGTON, Oct 12 (Reuters) - U.S. manufacturers are failing to fill thousands of vacant jobs, surprising when 14 million people are searching for work.

Technology giant Siemens Corp., the U.S. arm of Germany's Siemens AG , has over 3,000 jobs open all over the country. More than half require science, technology, engineering and math-related skills.

Other companies report job vacancies that range from six to 200, with some positions open for at least nine months.

Manufacturing is hurt by a dearth of skilled workers.

"What we have been saying for quite a while is that even though there is a high unemployment rate, it's very difficult to find skilled people," said Jeff Owens, president of ATS, a manufacturing consulting services company.

A survey by ManpowerGroup found that a record 52 percent of U.S. employers have difficulty filling critical positions within their organizations -- up from 14 percent in 2010.

Owens said his company, which counts manufacturing behemoths Caterpillar and Motorola among its clients, has at any given time about 200 open positions .

"We are pro-actively working to fill them. It can take 90 to a hundred days, probably, to fill them," he told Reuters. "We are creating jobs. We just don't necessarily have the right people to fill them."

On average, companies usually take seven weeks to fill job openings.

MISMATCH OF SKILLS AND JOBS

Most of the jobs hard to fill are for skilled trades, Internet technology, engineers, sales representatives and machine operators.

Yet American colleges are producing fewer math and science graduates as students favor social sciences, whose workload is perceived to be manageable, leading to a skills mismatch.

Math, engineering, technology and computer science students accounted for about 11.1 percent of college graduates in 1980, according to government data. That share dropped to about 8.9 percent in 2009.

An aging population of skilled workers is adding to the problem. As the baby boomers retire, there are fewer skilled workers available to replace them.

"Many of the younger kids that are coming out of college have been discouraged to go into manufacturing," said Dennis Bray, president and CEO of Contour Precision Group.

"A lot of the college graduates have chosen a curriculum and degree that does not give them the necessary science and math skills to be of immediate benefit to companies such as ours."

Contour Precision, based in Clover, South Carolina, does contract work for the energy and aerospace industries. It is currently looking for six technicians. It has had positions open since last year.

Unemployment in manufacturing is at 8.4 percent, below the overall rate of 9.1 percent. According to the Labor Department's latest Job Openings and Labor Turnover survey, there were 240,000 open jobs in manufacturing in August up 38.7 percent from a year ago.

The problem is sufficiently serious that businesses are pushing Congress to address the issue of visas and help them hire more high-skilled foreigners.

STRUCTURAL UNEMPLOYMENT?

These companies' inability to fill open jobs suggests that part of the unemployment problem confronting the nation could be more of a structural nature rather than a downturn in the business cycle.

Two years after the end of the worst recession since the Great Depression of the 1930s, about 14 million Americans are still unemployed.

In September, nearly 45 percent of them had been out of work for six months or more. The longer people are out of the workforce, the more dated their skills become, making it even harder to reintegrate them into the labor market.

The types of jobs available are also changing.

Medium-skilled repetitive tasks that can be computerized continue to disappear. First, it was from from the factory floor, but it also affects the back office, where processing and support jobs are declining.

The strongest job growth is concentrated in healthcare and the scientific, technical and computer fields, which usually require at least a post-secondary education.

"The old jobs are not coming back. We need to invest in education and training to get people prepared to fill these high-skilled, high-wage jobs of the future," said Eric Spiegel, president and CEO of Siemens Corp.

Siemens is recruiting in states where unemployment is high. Pennsylvania, Florida, Texas, North Carolina, New Jersey, California, Illinois, Georgia and New York have jobless rates that range from 8 percent to 12.1 percent.

According to the Conference Board, workers with computer and math or science skills have a far better chance of getting a job, with one worker applying for every three of these types of jobs advertised. In contrast, there are roughly three people for every advertised job in sales.

PLENTY OF WELL-PAYING JOBS

Few of the thousands of jobs open in the manufacturing sector are low-wage positions.

Workers at the very low levels can earn as much as $30 an hour, with annual salaries for engineers ranging from $75,000 to $100,000. At Siemens, the average potential salary offered for its open positions is $89,000 a year.

Manufacturing lost its appeal during the 1990s when companies started moving production to Asian countries like China, in search of cheap labor. But rising wages in China are forcing some companies to bring production back home.

Although manufacturing accounts for about 12 percent of U.S. gross domestic product and about 10 percent of total non-farm employment, it has been the main pillar of support for the economy and one of the highest-paying sectors.

The shortage of skilled workers is also compounded by the depressed housing market, which is making it tough for Americans to relocate to where the jobs are.

The housing market crash has left many people with home loans owing financial institutions more than what their houses are worth, making it difficult for them to sell.

BRING IN THE ARMY

In hopes of addressing the skills gap, companies such as Siemens and ATS are turning to the military, targeting veterans. Siemens is embarking on apprenticeship programs, while ATS is running training programs for young people.

"We have found that veterans have extensive technical training and experience that they gain through military service, and these skills are extremely valuable to us and match up well with many of our over 3,000 open positions," Spiegel said.

Siemens has hired 450 military veterans so far this year.

Others are teaming up with professional bodies like the Society of Manufacturing Engineers (SME), which has developed online courses to support its members.

"We are not filling the pipeline with enough candidates for these positions. This problem has been ongoing for the last three or four years," said Mark Tomlinson, CEO of the Society of Manufacturing Engineers.

But the long-term solution lies in revamping the nation's education system to meet the current challenges and invest more in vocational training, industry leaders say.

"Often people say we do have vocational training, but it's geared towards yesterday's technology and yesterday's job opportunities," said ATS's Owens. "I am not sure the educators are on the mark with what exactly needs to be taught for today's environment."