Idiots please post in here

In the US, we face yet another mass shooting of massive proportions.  A new subcategory record, as if the news was reporting football stats.  "It's not the biggest one this year, but it's the biggest on record in a religious institution."  The world digs for motivation - religion, politics, apathy, genocide, whatever, to take solace that it was conducted by another type of person.   The 2nd amendment will be the prop for and against the tragedy.  

Yet, the common thread is largely kept out of the discussion.  The common theme, of course, is that the majority of these violent tragedies are conducted by males, regardless of the underlying motivation.  Attempting to dig a bit deeper than "There are good guys, and there are bad guys," what is leading so many men to decide that the ultimate solution to whatever grinds their gears is to murder a bunch of regular folks?  

I know right? Weird that it was a 16yr old girl, Brenda Spencer, that started it all.

There is a rot at the core of this - and everyone kinda knows what it is but can't quite put their finger on it. The more people you have raging without hope and who think they have nothing to lose the greater the odds get. Given easy access to the tools that every cowboy hero and outlaw use to light up the big screen... is it any wonder they never choose to just poison a water supply? Not at all. It's just a rage fantasy playing out for real. An epidemic of them actually. What's the trigger? Who knows. Global media negativity? 20 years at war?  Rules on top of rules on top of rules? "The struggle"? Undiagnosed mental instability? Who knows. Maybe all of them. Probably not none of them.

In reply to The Artist Formerly Known as Giant Purple Snorklewacker :

I think that's the best I've ever heard anyone put this into words. Very well said. 

Maybe we should send Huck..., er, TAFKAGPS to Washington.

Currently reading:

The Vanishing American Adult: Our Coming-of-Age Crisis--and How to Rebuild a Culture of Self-Reliance

It purports that the youth of America no longer has the support structure it has had for generations and we are seeing the consequences. Historically, we've had children without parents who grow up mean and fast. We, as a culture, didn't coddle our children and shelter them from real life. Children at the age of 7 frequently had seen death, if only in the preparing of food. Children worked around the house, doing farm work, or in factories. We as a society decided that it would be better to have children in school getting educated. The purported end result of these good intentions is that children have lost their parents, grandparents, and family for schools. This has produced a lack of aging rituals. Aging rituals and family used to supply adolescents with an avenue to find answers.

It's only my opinion, but this seems relevant to the discussion, not as THE factor, but certainly a factor.

Watch TV for 5 minutes, and you'll see a bevy of shows about the rich buying vacation homes, islands, yachts and airplanes.  We have hours-long live coverage of auto auctions where hunks of steel sell for thousands of times their actual worth to collectors who put them in their private warehouses. We glorify spending a million dollars on a sweet 16 party, we watch as the rich get richer and enjoy more and more spoils.  All the while, labor jobs you can support a family on are disappearing daily.

What causes a person to do something so horrific is beyond me, but endless frustration at your situation has to wear on you.    

@pinchvalve

The cause of all human suffering is unmet expectations. 

When you expect the sun to always shine and it doesn't that is a crushing blow. If you don't have the expectation - every sunrise is a new day.

Who would have thought the path to happiness was low expectations

When the US is ready to deal with this problem, the rest of the world will be waiting by the photocopier with their gun laws. Until then, have fun blaming everything under the sun except the easy availability of the single-purpose weapon which makes it possible for a spree killer to take more than 4 lives (going by historical stats) before being subdued. No country has eliminated spree killings, but only one that doesn't have warlords running loose has a huge mass shooting problem. I think I said everything else I have to say on this topic in the Vegas mass shooting thread.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Except the OP wasn't asking how to stop large groups from being murdered by guns. He posed the question of what drives men and boys to want to murder as many people as they can in the first place. The motive exists outside the means.

Johnboyjjb said:

Currently reading:

The Vanishing American Adult: Our Coming-of-Age Crisis--and How to Rebuild a Culture of Self-Reliance

 

It purports that the youth of America no longer has the support structure it has had for generations and we are seeing the consequences. Historically, we've had children without parents who grow up mean and fast. We, as a culture, didn't coddle our children and shelter them from real life. Children at the age of 7 frequently had seen death, if only in the preparing of food. Children worked around the house, doing farm work, or in factories. We as a society decided that it would be better to have children in school getting educated. The purported end result of these good intentions is that children have lost their parents, grandparents, and family for schools. This has produced a lack of aging rituals. Aging rituals and family used to supply adolescents with an avenue to find answers.

It's only my opinion, but this seems relevant to the discussion, not as THE factor, but certainly a factor.

I would argue that the "culture of self-reliance" is exactly what's caused the problem. We live in a complex and difficult world and expecting to be an all powerful completely independent person is a recipe for disaster.

The Artist Formerly Known as Giant Purple Snorklewacker said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Except the OP wasn't asking how to stop large groups from being murdered by guns. He posed the question of what drives men and boys to want to murder as many people as they can in the first place. The motive exists outside the means.

 

Well to discuss this more...it can be anything in a wide array of mental problems including many forms of ideological extremism (in terms of mental health, these are caused by "over-valued ideas"). The Vegas shooter, I think had some combination of almost a fetish for extreme risk combined with a pathological selfishness, which made going out in a mass shooting seem like an appealing activity to him. Some may have zero logic to them whatsoever - a person may just want to gun down some people because a voice in their head won't shut up until they do.

There's no one "Mass Shooting Disorder" to pin down and treat, that I'm sure of.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I'll agree there is no one trigger - I'm not so sure about root causes. A combination of rage and hopelessness seem to be under most of them.  Atleast among those who write out a manifesto before they set off. Although, that isn't exactly a revelation. More of a Capt Obvious states the obvious :)

In reply to GameboyRMH :

agreed, there is no one magic bullet to solve this problem, pardon the pun. Banning guns doesn't solve it. Look how drug free we are. Ignoring the mental health issues and focusing on the tools used seems to be working marvelously as well. 

If we as a society really want to "solve" this issue, we have to look at it in ways we as a society aren't prepared to do. We have a mental health issue. We aren't preparing our kids for reality here. In the real world everyone doesn't get a trophy, not everyone is a winner and there are losers. Sometimes (sometimes a lot of times) you will be one of them. Learning how to deal with that is the first step in being an adult. 

Haven't humans always been violent? Haven't we always wanted what others have, or sought more of what we already have? The difference is that some people draw a line that won't be crossed, while others are willing to harm other humans for having what they want, or being a threat to what they already have. Gun laws, or TV, or socioeconomic themes can certainly play a role here, but the desire to do harm to another human is as old as we are.

I'm not trying to excuse any of this as being "natural", or beyond improvement. But it's important to understand what we're actually fighting here is an evil part of human nature, and compulsiveness. As long as there has been good in the world, there has been evil.

I can't agree that focusing primarily on mental health will be productive here. Other countries have proven that gun control works to greatly reduce the body count of spree killings, even in the absence of good mental health care. It would be better even to have twice as many spree killings with a quarter or less as many people killed in each one.

Bobcougarzillameister said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

 In the real world everyone doesn't get a trophy, not everyone is a winner and there are losers. Sometimes (sometimes a lot of times) you will be one of them. Learning how to deal with that is the first step in being an adult. 

While I don't disagree everyone needs to learn to deal with failure, the idea of "everyone getting a trophy" is NOT some recent concept invented to protect "snowflake" millennials.  My little league team got trophies 40 years ago. We were terrible and didn't win a single game. Not one.  Still got that silly little trophy at the end of the season (and being a pack-rat, I still have it).  And this was in Georgia back in the 70's - not exactly a bastion of liberal ideals... 

Regardless, I would agree much of these horrific acts have been influenced by a general sense of hopelessness. Unfortunately, there is vast disagreement about how those feelings can be mitigated.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

apples and rocks my friend, apples and rocks. This person was already banned from firearms due to his DD, the church was another GFZ (as they always are). How many more laws are we going to make here? 

Bobcougarzillameister said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

apples and rocks my friend, apples and rocks. This person was already banned from firearms due to his DD, the church was another GFZ (as they always are). How many more laws are we going to make here? 

Let's see how he got the gun before saying that more laws wouldn't be helpful. For example, in some countries the sale of a gun to a person who is not legally qualified to own one, or the loss of a gun from its registered owner, is a serious crime on the owner's part.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

And its not here? Its a federal offense to sell a firearm to a non-legal person.  In EVERY state/county/city/town. 

STM317 said:

Haven't humans always been violent? Haven't we always wanted what others have, or sought more of what we already have? The difference is that some people draw a line that won't be crossed, while others are willing to harm other humans for having what they want, or being a threat to what they already have. Gun laws, or TV, or socioeconomic themes can certainly play a role here, but the desire to do harm to another human is as old as we are.

I'm not trying to excuse any of this as being "natural", or beyond improvement. But it's important to understand what we're actually fighting here is an evil part of human nature, and compulsiveness. As long as there has been good in the world, there has been evil.

The choice of a firearm says something too - there are plenty of ways to off a crowd of people with household chemicals but that is never the choice. It is an attempt to satisfy a rage - the violence of shooting is a draw I think. Poison or fire would never do for some reason despite it's greater capacity for carnage. We never have mustard gas attacks even though any high school chem student could pull it off as easily as collecting a berkeley ton of ammo. Hell, a couple of high school kids with different a motive profile showed us how hard it would be to hurt a bunch of people in Boston with cookware. Answer: Not very.

So, why the guns? Either the symbol of power that wielding a weapon has to the killer - or the actual satisfaction of dealing out the doom personally is a trait in all of these.  Since I'm not a psychiatrist I can't really say to the why much more than observing it as a choice they make but as a user of logic I can see that limiting the access to the types of tools they prefer does seem like it would limit the infliction rate. If they couldn't get a high powered semi-auto rifle they wouldn't necessarily turn to other means of destruction. They would go to some other type of firearm they could get. Shotgun, bolt action rifle, revolver, etc. 

I don't much care for the idea of the government disarming citizens but I can see where limiting the type of arms available is going to have to be part of the conversation certainly.

Bobcougarzillameister said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

And its not here? Its a federal offense to sell a firearm to a non-legal person.  In EVERY state/county/city/town. 

From my understanding, no it's not the same:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

GameboyRMH said:

Bobcougarzillameister said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

apples and rocks my friend, apples and rocks. This person was already banned from firearms due to his DD, the church was another GFZ (as they always are). How many more laws are we going to make here? 

Let's see how he got the gun before saying that more laws wouldn't be helpful. For example, in some countries the sale of a gun to a person who is not legally qualified to own one, or the loss of a gun from its registered owner, is a serious crime on the owner's part.

How he got the gun is not important. It's why he got the gun that is the issue.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Murder is pretty much the highest rung of the crime ladder. People who are willing to go there, don't care about breaking minor gun laws along the way.

I'm not going to argue that gun laws can't be improved upon. That's really not what this thread is about. Gun laws relate to "how" people murder. What this thread is about, is the "why" behind people who are willing to murder.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

YES, it is the same. It is illegal to sell a firearm to a non-legal person in every state. It's a federal crime. Even in a person to person sale, it is the responsibility of the seller to ensure that the purchaser is not a non-legal person. We typically do that with a drivers license and a license to carry in that state that is valid. 

GameboyRMH said:

When the US is ready to deal with this problem, the rest of the world will be waiting by the photocopier with their gun laws.

What the rest of the world refuses to understand is that guns are the symptom, NOT the cause.  The cause is complex and multifaceted.  You guys haven't solved the problem either... you've just changed the tools available to those who want to use them.  I'm not arguing whether that is good or bad, I'm just making the point.