Paging SVRex to the flooring phone (or anyone really)

In reply to SVreX : 
please walk  across a nice wood floor finished in your choice of Polyurethane   in your dirty work boots  for a few years. Heck make it more than a decade. 
What  would you expect the finish of the floor to be like?  
Now play with big dogs who won't allow their nails to be trimmed. 
Etc. 

In the morning I'll take a picture. Of my floor. Oh you'll see dust and dents, grooves,  in the wood from dropped tools,  scaffolding moved around, blah blah blah. But the finish itself?  Looks pretty presentable.  
You may be right, it's not hard but it's sure durable. 
 

plus I'm not kidding when I say I'm the worlds worst painter. I use a big old barn brush that's never been rinsed out or cleaned in the last 2 decades. When I'm done I just drop the brush in the bucket and let the alcohol evaporate.  Next time I need to shellac something  I'll pour some alcohol in the bucket wait a bit then just slop  it on.  
I'll  take a picture of the timbers I finished that way. You'll be shocked at how nice the finish is.  It sure isn't me. 
 

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm interested to see your pictures. Everything has it's pros and cons, and I'm sure if shellac held no merit or usefulness of would have disappeared by now.

I'll be finishing floors in an old house over the next few months and whilst I'm leaning towards water based poly, I know shellac, wax or even tung oil would be more era appropriate. 

SVreX said:

I would definitely recommend sanding and finish in place. No one has the capacity in their home to apply finishes uniformly when the material is loose.  Plus, sanding in place removes the discrepancies board to board. (Most pre-finished stuff has a micro-bevel on each edge).
 

As for the product?  I'm really not a finishes guy, but there are a lot of reasons  poly is used so frequently...

I strongly agree with svrex regarding finishing the floors in situ, regardless of what finish you decide to use.

daeman said:

SVreX said:

I would definitely recommend sanding and finish in place. No one has the capacity in their home to apply finishes uniformly when the material is loose.  Plus, sanding in place removes the discrepancies board to board. (Most pre-finished stuff has a micro-bevel on each edge).
 

As for the product?  I'm really not a finishes guy, but there are a lot of reasons  poly is used so frequently...

I strongly agree with svrex regarding finishing the floors in situ, regardless of what finish you decide to use.

Yup.  Agreed.  I was hoping that the miracle stuff they spray on pre-finished floors was available as a DIY thing, but the Aluminum Oxide coating they use isn't really a DIY thing.

In reply to Curtis73 :

Neither are the automated conveyor curing ovens...

frenchyd said:

In reply to SVreX : 
please walk  across a nice wood floor finished in your choice of Polyurethane   in your dirty work boots  for a few years. Heck make it more than a decade. 
What  would you expect the finish of the floor to be like?  
Now play with big dogs who won't allow their nails to be trimmed. 
Etc. 

 

Actually, a properly applied polyurethane is good for at least 10 years with all the abuse going on. I grew up in a house that had just had the floors re-poly'd about the time we moved in.  That would have been 1975-ish.  I grew up on a farm, so muddy/stony boots, lots of big dogs over the years, two kids, and Dad working on the motorcycle in the dining room, if you walk into that house today (I did just yesterday to see mom and dad), the poly on the floors is still darn near perfect.  There is nothing wearing through except you can see on the stair noses that it's starting to get a little thin.  I'm sure if you look closely it has scratches, but nowhere that your eye is drawn.  Water, gasoline, brake cleaner, alcohol, and all kinds of pet fluids have been on those floors in the last 45 years.

I understand you love shellac, but I think I'm passing on it.

That's not to say I'm jumping on the poly bandwagon.  If I want to avoid amber/yellow, that limits me to a water based poly which is a far cry from the oil based stuff.  It's not a huge area (about 275 sf) so I think I will call about quotes on the water-cure urethane.  I might find it cost prohibitive, seeing as how I could put my own Poly down for $150.

I have been digging into some products which usually leads me to Bona.  They have a water based that they claim is good (and reviews that say it's the worst stuff ever) but they also have a commercial stuff that is water based, but has a hardener that you mix with it.  Again, the problem is that the reviews are either 5-stars and say "great" or 1-star and a 5 paragraph rant about how it is awful.  Hard to get straight dope.

SVreX said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

Neither are the automated conveyor curing ovens...

I couldn't find any on craigslist. 

In reply to Curtis73 :

I understand there is a great tendency to either accept or reject any given marketing. Whether we admit it or not, reviews are biased. In part because we buy a product the natural tendency is to believe our choice was the best.  
There are actually people who's job is to support a given product and suppress  negative reviews.  My bias is anti marketing. In my whole life I've never seen an ad for shellac. At $47 a gallon for what you get and my results ( given my horrible skill in painting) I'm very pleased. 
I like lacquer paint jobs on cars over any 2 part paint I've ever seen.  Partly because the process leads to painting error corrections. Partly because it's a relatively benign process compared to the danger of two part paints.  But mostly because the result is a richness you can't get with two part paints.  I know I'm the exception there too. Newer has to be better doesn't it?  

In reply to Curtis73 :

Here's to support your decision on not going Shellac.   The board laying crosswise is not shellacked. Just a left over remnant. You see the yellowing on the wood flooring from 3 coats of shellac. Definitely some yellowing.  By the way to get glassily looking finish Shellac can be sanded like Lacquer for a deep glassy shine. I choose not to. At my age I don't want the resulting slippery ness. 

Well said. 
The photos above should give you a quickie look at two different  woods. 
 The maple was a quickie job done for my new wife about 6 years ago out of deference to her feet issues. 
 

The Black walnut was done around 2000-2001 and my first flooring job. Compare that near 20 year old finish to the tongue oil Finish on my Grandfather clock  I built about 3 years before. 
I though Tongue oil was an easy to apply finish. Actually Shellac is easier and faster  

In reply to SVreX :

I've repeatedly said what a horrible painter I am and how easy it is to get a flawless finish with shellac. 

That is a nice looking floor.

i can't wait to get my maple and start experimenting with things.

frenchyd said:

In reply to SVreX :

I've repeatedly said what a horrible painter I am and how easy it is to get a flawless finish with shellac. 

That BURL!

Once I found this sawmill locally, I knew I'd be in for a new hobby.  They currently have the maple for the flooring, as well as some ash and black walnut.  The walnut I'm having him cut a 3.5" live edge near the middle to be my new mantle piece.

In reply to frenchyd :

Here is the shellac bucket and my 20 year old brushes. I just let the alcohol evaporate and next time I need to shellac something I splash some alcohol in the bucket and a little while later I'm painting.  There was a movie, the Red Violin that showed just that technique being used. 

In reply to Curtis73 :

Welcome to my world. My sawmill is a fantastic place. He uses 54 inch circular saw blades. there is another sawmill about 50 miles away that has a 60 inch bottom blade and a 48 inch top blade.  He can saw a 48 inch board.  I think there is someone who can saw a 60 inch board. 
Mine was a customer of mine who sold me over 50,000 board feet of wood for slightly under  $25,000  most of it was walnut. A fair amount of white oak   Hard Maple and cherry.  
 

The wonderful part was I got to select my trees. We walked the wood lot with the owner and marked which trees I wanted. They were carefully dropped to do no damage and then snaked out by a team of horses.  A year later when I drove by you couldn't tell any trees had been removed.  The wonderful thing was two of the white oak trees were so old  they had started to rot in the center.  He cut the rot off and didn't include it in  the cost. 
I still got a 12"x12" 10' long timber out of it that was at least 280 years old at the time. 
 

Regarding that burl. I had one tree that yielded    9. 6x6" timbers 10 feet long and six  1  inch thick planks of burl 22 inches wide by 10 feet long.    All solid burl. 
That was after he quartered it with a chain saw because it was too big to get on his saw

In reply to Curtis73 :

Look at wood he doesn't typically have a market for. Box elder for example. It looks a lot like maple except it can have some wonderfully colorful slashes of reds or yellows. Another one is Iron wood. It makes beautiful and strong handles for chisels etc. 

I've  got a fair amount of Fiddleback  the maple I paid only 10 cents a bd foot for and the black walnut just came right off the mill that way.   I had some birds eye red oak  but traded that for a brand new hand plane

Curtis73 said:

That is a nice looking floor.

i can't wait to get my maple and start experimenting with things.

I think experimenting with a few different finish options is going to be the way to go. It's really hard to choose something based purely on advice and review, seeing it in the flesh can completely change your perception.

I'm going to have to keep some offcuts to sand and test 3 or 4 different types of finish and make a decision based on how they turn out along with how they'll be to maintain. In saying that, I know whatever I choose will need to be a matt or satin finish because I'm just not a fan of super shiny floors.

Get your floor laid and go from there, once you see it in the space you'll have a much better idea of how to finish it. 

daeman said:

Curtis73 said:

That is a nice looking floor.

 

I'm going to have to keep some offcuts to sand and test 3 or 4 different types of finish and make a decision based on how they turn out along with how they'll be to maintain. In saying that, I know whatever I choose will need to be a matt or satin finish because I'm just not a fan of super shiny floors.

 

Some of the best advice I ever got (with poly) was to do all but the last coat in gloss.  Since oil based poly is inherently gloss, they alter the sheen by adding flattening agents.  So, in theory, gloss poly has just the tiniest bit higher concentration of actual poly solids.  Once you get the next to last coat of gloss, you can make your decision.... yes, I like the gloss, I'll do one more coat.... or, It's too shiny, I think I'll do satin for the last coat.

So I think I'll follow that advice.  I'm also not a huge fan of super glossy floors... plus, for an amateur who has only done it a few times (15 years ago), a satin finish sure does hide imperfections better than seeing all the potential brushstrokes in a glossy reflection from a window or an overhead light.

daeman said:

Curtis73 said:

That is a nice looking floor.

i can't wait to get my maple and start experimenting with things.

I think experimenting with a few different finish options is going to be the way to go. It's really hard to choose something based purely on advice and review, seeing it in the flesh can completely change your perception.

 

That is entirely true for the initial look and getting the right appearance, but it doesn't really help me 5 years from now if I choose something not very durable.  Wise advice, nonetheless. 

In reply to Curtis73 :

That's really interesting, I wouldn't have thought you could easily dull out gloss poly like that, I'll definitely be keeping that in mind as an option.

You're not wrong about being able to hide more with a dull finish hahaha. Besides, I feel like a flat finish just kinda has a more natural look to it

Here's what I'm working with

frenchyd said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

Look at wood he doesn't typically have a market for. Box elder for example. It looks a lot like maple except it can have some wonderfully colorful slashes of reds or yellows. Another one is Iron wood. It makes beautiful and strong handles for chisels etc. 

I've  got a fair amount of Fiddleback  the maple I paid only 10 cents a bd foot for and the black walnut just came right off the mill that way.   I had some birds eye red oak  but traded that for a brand new hand plane

I'm kind of kicking myself right now.  About 6 years ago I cut down a massive Mulberry that was in danger of falling on my house at the time.  I hacked it all into logs and split it all for firewood.  When I cut it wet, it had a very locust-like yellow heartwood.  As it dried, I realized my error as it all turned this gorgeous purple with brown and yellow streaks. It even had some nice burl in the crotches.  Even the whitewood got some greenish yellow to it like poplar.  I nearly cried.

Then to make matters worse, I burned that wood for a year and before the following year it just disintegrated into punk worthless junk.  What a waste.

Note to self... bandsaw a thin plank of every single tree I cut and let it dry for a week to see what it looks like.

That is entirely true for the initial look and getting the right appearance, but it doesn't really help me 5 years from now if I choose something not very durable.  Wise advice, nonetheless. 

Totally agree with that, and whilst getting the initial look is important, how a finish will hold up over time is an equally important factor. For arguments sake, say you do a sample in tung oil and decided that's the look for me, then you can really narrow down your focus on how it holds up, what it's pros and cons are. Ultimately you may decide that despite loving the look, that product doesn't actually meet your requirements. But seeing a finish on your wood, in your house, with your lighting will be the best way to narrow down your options as to what you want to use 

daeman said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

That's really interesting, I wouldn't have thought you could easily dull out gloss poly like that, I'll definitely be keeping that in mind as an option.

You're not wrong about being able to hide more with a dull finish hahaha. Besides, I feel like a flat finish just kinda has a more natural look to it

Here's what I'm working with

Yup... the sheen on the poly is just how the surface dries, so it doesn't matter what's under it, the last coat will be your sheen.

That looks like Black Pine?  I'm not very good with my southern-hemisphere conifers.

Edit... scratch that... wrong grain for Black Pine.

Edit again... what is it?

Edit #3.... whatever it is, I love the contrast.

In reply to Curtis73 :

Given I was initially leaning in the direction of a satin finish water based poly, that's some really handy info. I'll be keeping it in mind

Thank you. It's Cypress pine, also known as Murray pine here. Agreed the contrast and knots are awesome, I purchased it to match the original floors so the house made the decision for us really.

Here's an original board that I've sanded and placed between two new ones

daeman said:

That is entirely true for the initial look and getting the right appearance, but it doesn't really help me 5 years from now if I choose something not very durable.  Wise advice, nonetheless. 

Totally agree with that, and whilst getting the initial look is important, how a finish will hold up over time is an equally important factor. For arguments sake, say you do a sample in tung oil and decided that's the look for me, then you can really narrow down your focus on how it holds up, what it's pros and cons are. Ultimately you may decide that despite loving the look, that product doesn't actually meet your requirements. But seeing a finish on your wood, in your house, with your lighting will be the best way to narrow down your options as to what you want to use 

Truth.  I also want to try a few really light stains.  I want the wood to stay light, but a light stain might really highlight the burls and grain without making it any darker overall.