Patriotism

We are having a patriotic service at our church this Sunday and the words to one of the songs we are singing made me do a little thinking.

We take America for granted because it's all we've ever known. And then there’s the language difference. So many words have taken on new meanings since 1776. This makes it hard for us to truly understand what our forefathers went through or even what they had in mind for this country.

As an example, for us to have an understanding of the intended UNION we would need to think of our country's name as the United Countries of America because the word State doesn't have the same meaning today as it did back then.

Here are some of the words to one of the songs we will be singing that caused me to begin thinking about the uncertainties of this great Union. We take America for granted because it worked and that's all we know, but what about them? They didn't know it would work - that had to be more than a little scary.

The title of the song is "We hold these truths" by Phil Mehrens & Steve Marshall

"When they signed the Declaration, They knew it would cost them everything.

They pledged their lives and fortunes To give to us the things that they believed.

They stood for truth and justice, Life and liberty.

When they made the choice to follow, They didn't understand where it would lead."

I don't guess I had ever really thought of what it must have been like to be one of them. I always thought it was so obvious it would work there was little to no risk. Well, except for that pesky little war, but it was always obvious (to me) they would win. The song’s words made me realize that if you were them you really did put it all on the line.

Would you have been willing to give up your house, your home, your family, your friends, all your belongings, risk being put in jail for the rest of your life, possibly having to live on the run for the rest of your life or even be killed for a concept? There were no guarantees. Nothing like this had ever been done.

Have you ever in your life had to make that kind of a choice? Can you even envision having to make such a choice?

Patriotism isn't limited to the military. There are many ways to be a patriot. Supporting the country itself is one way. Holding the country up to the world at large as a positive entity and worth emulating is another. I'm not talking politics here, I'm talking the concept of a country like ours vs. other governmental forms. The ability to live free and do as you please isn't a given worldwide.

Here's something that always seems strange to me. You seem to hear almost every ethnic group in America bragging about their pride, but never do you hear them saying out loud that they are also proud to be an American. "Ohhhhh, I can't say that because people in the Middle East, France, you name it, don't like us and that would make me insensitive to their feelings."

WOW! You'd put the feelings of someone you don't know and whom you'll never meet, who lives in another country and doesn't even like you or your country, ahead of all the people you do know and the country you live in which has given you a good life? Political Correctness has gone way too far.

Answer me this, how come it's OK for them to be proud of their country but you have to be ashamed of yours? Is it because we have more than them? How'd that happen? Could it have been the way our country was formed and the principles it was founded upon? Could it have been the rights our citizens had? Could it be that we worked for it? Be proud of what we’ve got and accomplished, not ashamed. If nothing else it shows America works!

Now let’s look closer to home. It seems to be OK to be proud you're Black, Irish, Mexican, White, Chinese, etc., but you can't be proud to be an American? To me that's unpatriotic!

Why are you here in this country if not for the fact that things were better here than back home? That holds true for all of you people whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower as well. Why didn't any of your ancestors or you move to another country? You could you know. So why did you and they stay? Isn't that worth being proud of and bragging about sometimes?

If you're Black then Black is beautiful. But White is beautiful too. And so is every other color of skin No one is, or should be, more proud of your heritage than you. You have a lot to be proud of. Be proud of your parents, your kids, your church, your school, your job, your city, your race, your upbringing, your Country!

So many of the public figures seem to think it makes them politically correct to cut down America and all we stand for. They think it makes them seem enlightened and a person of the world, but it doesn't, it makes them seem ungrateful and a turncoat or maybe even a traitor.

Harsh words? What is a traitor? Someone who sells state secrets or actively works for a foreign country so that they can overthrow our government? When we think of traitors we think Benedict Arnold, but there are many levels of committing a traitorous act short of actively working for a foreign government.

Here are some definitions of traitor I found on the web. 1) acts of betrayal of one's sovereign or nation. 2) One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust. 3) Disloyal 4) or one who aids an enemy in conquering his country. 5) one who betrays any confidence or trust; a betrayer. 6) one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty

Are you seeing a trend here? Aren’t the anti-American statements so many of them make to the media betraying one’s country or betraying the confidence & trust of the country. Don’t they give the press in these other countries ammunition to make us out as the Great Satan? No one in their countries would dare say a bad word about their country. It’s not just that it would be against the law, it’s that they are proud of their country and they think it’s the best in the world. What do you think?

Do you really stand for America? Or do you really stand for anything except yourself? The fact that you can be selfish is one of those rights they gave us. Don't abuse it.

Wow! Lots to read here.

Three weeks ago I am driving through my neighborhood and see this in a dude's garbage. I double back and get a picture and then I rescue the flag. I unbolted it from the broken wooden stick and dried it off. It is a nicely made flag that I wouldn't mind having cleaned and owning.

After discussion with a local Eagle Scout he told me the Boy Scout's have a proper flag burning ceremony and that is the correct way since it was disprespected by touching the ground.

This is the America we live in today.

I stand for the original concept... Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. The Bill of Rights as a contract from the government to its subjects of things it won't snatch away at whim. These are things to fight for, to defend and to be proud of. I'm not sure if I'm a patriot or a traitor to the government we have now... because its hard to tell if they still stand for those same ideals.

Tyranny wields blind faith as a tool - to stir its subjects to do its bidding. Question everything.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I stand for the original concept... Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. The Bill of Rights as a contract from the government to its subjects of things it won't snatch away at whim. These are things to fight for, to defend and to be proud of. I'm not sure if I'm a patriot or a traitor to the government we have now... because its hard to tell if they still stand for those same ideals. Tyranny wields blind faith as a tool - to stir its subjects to do its bidding. Question everything.

You're a patriot.

Berkeley the hideous creature we now call government.

The country and the government aren't one and the same. The country is the land and the people, the government is just the employees that do the day to day paperwork. I do believe it's about time to find some new employees.

Good post Carguy. Thanks.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I stand for the original concept... Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. The Bill of Rights as a contract from the government to its subjects of things it won't snatch away at whim. These are things to fight for, to defend and to be proud of. I'm not sure if I'm a patriot or a traitor to the government we have now... because its hard to tell if they still stand for those same ideals. Tyranny wields blind faith as a tool - to stir its subjects to do its bidding. Question everything.

^^^ This!

I think it is a good idea to take at close look at what our founding fathers fought for and compare to where we are...

I don't think the British viewed them exactly as patriots. Try some of their shennanigans today and I'm pretty sure you'll be facing charges under the Patriot Act.

+1

I have boundless faith in the ingenuity and will of the American People.

I have no faith left in our political leaders. We need to turn things upside-down.

Would you have been willing to give up your house, your home, your family, your friends, all your belongings, risk being put in jail for the rest of your life, possibly having to live on the run for the rest of your life or even be killed for a concept? There were no guarantees. Nothing like this had ever been done.

Sign me up. And the "Nothing like this had ever been done" part is a bit of a stretch. This country berkeleying sucks by the way.

carguy123 wrote: Now let’s look closer to home. It seems to be OK to be proud you're Black, Irish, Mexican, White, Chinese, etc., but you can't be proud to be an American? To me that's unpatriotic!

I'm proud to be an American. I never heard anyone say I couldn't be. I'm not sure who you are talking about, but if anyone is telling you that it's not okay to say you're proud to be an American, well, they're just wrong.

I did get the impression from some leaders that I wasn't patriotic if I didn't agree with their policy. Didn't bother me much. They were wrong too.

I put a flag up outside my house. I take it down at night, or when it rains. When I go out to get it I like to pause for a second and look at it. Just take a moment to be grateful. I've been one lucky guy. Really glad I was born here. I love America.

I have ideas about things, and some other Americans have different ideas. One of the great things about America is we're free to have different ideas. Sometimes I think we need to remind ourselves that we're Americans first. I don't have much respect for people who run other Americans down for their views. I can do without Keith Olberman or Rush Limbaugh. Disagree with anyone you like, but don't make it a personal thing. Those are fellow Americans you're talking about. And typically, you're talking about the ones who have taken the time to express their views about what they think the country should be while serving in some capacity.

United we stand- even with the Americans you disagree with.

If anyone thinks this country stinks or whatever, they are free to leave, unlike some countries.

patriotism is admiting cindy sheehan is an american hero.

chew on that.

iceracer wrote: If anyone thinks this country stinks or whatever, they are free to leave, unlike some countries.

They actually aren't. Governments all over the world, including yours, have locked it all up with visas, work permits, border checks, etc. This is a major rant of mine, don't get me started.

ignorant wrote: patriotism is admiting cindy sheehan is an american hero. chew on that.

Then so is Glen Beck.

On the OPs point, I've seen plenty of immigrants who say they're proud to be American.

Lots of them are told they can't practice their religious/cultural freedom because the "true Americans" feel that anyone who doesn't act like them is a threat to their country somehow.

I wouldn't expect people who are discriminated against and told they're a threat to feel like they really belong.

Lee Greenwood mows my lawn.

ignorant wrote: patriotism is admiting cindy sheehan is an american hero. chew on that.

On the grounds that she has beliefs that she will stand up for, you are correct. She could be considered a hero. She sure knows how to hold her line. On the grounds that she gave a son. She is an American Hero.

If her message hadn't been hijacked by every other crazy activist that wanted they're five minutes of fame she might have actually gotten somewhere. As it is she was marginalized by everyone that wasn't a arch liberal and used as a whip against Bush by them.

Now that she is still holding her beliefs against Obama, everyone thinks she is bat shi++ crazy. I'll give her big kudos for that.

Have you noticed she isn't in the media now that Bush is out and Obama is in. Hmmm, wonder why that is.

3Door4G wrote: On the OPs point, I've seen plenty of immigrants who say they're proud to be American. Lots of them are told they can't practice their religious/cultural freedom because the "true Americans" feel that anyone who doesn't act like them is a threat to their country somehow. I wouldn't expect people who are discriminated against and told they're a threat to feel like they really belong.

Example please.

Tow words. Merry Christmas. Two more. Under God. Seems that the "true americans" religious beliefs are under attack more so than any other religion.

I think really loving your country means not being afraid to critize it, and to always strive to improve it. There are things I love so much about America sometimes I just stand in awe of it. And other times I'm deeply ashamed of things we do. But it doesn't make me love my country any less. It just makes me want to change those things. I'm damn proud to be an American.

But have you ever thought it would have been like to be one of the first Americans?

There was no safety net.

We know now that it worked out for them, but they didn't.

CaptainSpaulding wrote:

3Door4G wrote: On the OPs point, I've seen plenty of immigrants who say they're proud to be American. Lots of them are told they can't practice their religious/cultural freedom because the "true Americans" feel that anyone who doesn't act like them is a threat to their country somehow. I wouldn't expect people who are discriminated against and told they're a threat to feel like they really belong.

Example please. Tow words. Merry Christmas. Two more. Under God. Seems that the "true americans" religious beliefs are under attack more so than any other religion.

Wait, so because I don't believe in mythical life saving Zombies, I'm not a "true American?" Would you like an opportunity to retract that statement or are you showing some more of that famous religous tolerance?

Oh, and "Under God" wasn't added to the pledge until 1954, 60 years after the "Pledge" was composed.

Speaking of the founding fathers and what the people of the time had to go through, I was searching on the web for a basic history of the income tax in America. I wanted as unbiased a source as possible (no wikipedia) and found the following link:

United States Dep of the Treasury History of the U.S. Tax System

It was enlightening to see the fear the founders and the early citizens had of a big central gov't and how that led to them fighting most forms of early taxes. The states had much more power than they do now. Seems as the fear has worn off through the years, the gov't has expanded, taxes increased, etc. Just thought it was worth sharing.

Other interesting bits:

Farmers lobbied for the original income tax since they didn't want to pay the lion's share with a property tax.

Personal income taxes have been as high as 94% at the max rate.

There are also some proven ideas for how to recover from a recession in there, but I don't think any of our gov't officials have ever studies these methods (or they don't care).

Inspiring post Carguy, but a question. How in 200 years have we gone from what you describe with no safety net to the gimme, gimme, gimme society that votes for a man because he's going to up their monthly free stipend or pay the mortgage? What became of the patriotic ethic that made one proud of a day's work, proud to stand up and be counted? What happened to the family unit?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? (I know the answer)

Which fell first, Ethics, Morality or Patriotism?

Dan

CaptainSpaulding wrote:

3Door4G wrote: On the OPs point, I've seen plenty of immigrants who say they're proud to be American. Lots of them are told they can't practice their religious/cultural freedom because the "true Americans" feel that anyone who doesn't act like them is a threat to their country somehow. I wouldn't expect people who are discriminated against and told they're a threat to feel like they really belong.

Example please. Tow words. Merry Christmas. Two more. Under God. Seems that the "true americans" religious beliefs are under attack more so than any other religion.

Under God was added to separate us from the Godless Communists. was a poor add to anything to do with the US. No matter what higher being inspired the documents that were written for us, one of the very first things it says is that:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Putting "Under God" on government documents and coins violates that, IMHO. One should not need to recognise a God to be an American.

Merry Christmas isnt' under attack, if you keep it on your house and in your church. When you put it on the county courthouse, it is under attack, as it should be. As a govenment, we are not supposed to recognize a single religion, but also do not repress any, either. So you can praise whatever God you wish to praise, but not on tax payer property.

The only religious beliefs that seem to be under attack right now are Islam, since they are being protested to not build on their own land that happens to be near the World Trade Center.

"True Americans" keep their religious beliefs in their churces and homes, and leave it out of government, as intended.

These are examples of people yelling loudly for you to get upset, and that's all it does.

I know it's cool right now to hate the govenment, and belive that everything the govenment does is bad, and a waste of money, since private enterprise should be able to do it better.

But someting to think about- with out the US govenment:

We would not have gone to the moon and returned safely to the earth.

As a side benefit- we also would not have cable or satillite TV, since most of the satillite development happened at NASA, as have most of the lifting devices. We would not have GPS. 30 years ago, when someone said we are going to put 24 satillites up to tell you where you are- would have seemed like a waste of money... but it looks pretty good.

We would not have the interstate highway. Heck, we would not have highways at all. Well, we *might * have a patchwork of toll roads that would probably be hard to deal with.

We would not have the US auto industry- without a great road system, what would the demand be.

We would not have a railroad system.

We would not have so much cheap stuff- both railroads and roads make it very easy to move things within the US.

We would not have the interenet- well, we might, but it probably would be like the toll road system, and the systems may not be compatable with themselves. but the interenet was fully started by us as a whole.

We would not have nuclear power or arms. The beginning of the atomic age was fully funded by the govenment, and probably would not have been as capable as it is without heavy government investment.

We would not have a solid power grid - see the toll roads again.

We would not have dams around the country providing cheap energy for us as a whole.

We would not have public schools. Without the schools- the interent would not have started (was mostly started in the public university system), the atomic age would not have started (Chicago, UC Berkely and other universities did a lot of the core research and development).

We probably would not have jet planes to carry us to various places. Without govenment investment into war planes and development, air anything would have been pretty slow to develop.

We would not have cool underseas research vessels, since they are direct decendants to subs that our govenment paid for and developed.

We probably would not have clean air, water, and soil, since it's cheaper to pollute....

Are we perfect- no, we are man, we can't be perfect. Are any of the above that great now? Of course not- none of them were even perfect when implemented. Do they make our lives better? oh, yea, without a doubt.

So when you go to France and they brag about their large number of nuclear plants that power their country, you can be a proud American that it was US that started that. When you go to Germany, and they brag about their environmental movement- you can be a proud Ameican to KNOW that it all started here in the US. When you fly across the country in your US made Boeing 757, you can be a proud American to know that much of the development that made air travel possible and safe was developed right in our own country, with our tax dollars. And when you are downloading the GPS data from your most recent autocross run, you can be a very proud American to know that your tax dollars made that even possible in the first place.

Our government isn't evil, it is us. We let it do what it does. We get convinced that the other side is so evil that the sky will fall. When we let government get out of hand, it's 100% our fault. But it's equally to our credit when it does good.

Just don't forget that.

Eric

I don't think I've heard anyone say to be ashamed of being an American, other than people bitching on this forum about people who day to be ashamed.

Just to make sure I got this right, If you support the gubment from 200 years ago, your a patriot, And if you support the current gubment your an idiot? I'm not saying the current administration is that great, but geez I don't know if it was much better back then either.

Joey