Patriotism

That's what I get for relying upon my memory instead of taking the time to check things out. Sorry.

carguy123 wrote: Didn't say it was OK, I said it wasn't frowned upon back then like it is today.

So you would agree that there are things the Founding Fathers thought were okay but we do not think are okay today?

One more point on the slavery issue. Slavery was brought up as if that was the be all and end all of any discussion, the point I had hoped to make was that it wasn't a big a deal back then as it is today. We've become sensitised to the issues. We've grown.

In the Civil War days it wasn't so much the slavery itself as much as the productivity it allowed. Remember we are talking about the very beginning of the mechanized industry. Once the north had big machines and could put the children as young as 5 to work they didn't care as much about slavery as the machines gave them the advantage.

I've actually got to produce a little today myself so I can do things like eat so have fun guys.

And FFFFFlounder........

carguy123 wrote: Read your bible people.

I know I said I wasn't going to post any more in this thread, but I can not step over this.

I am not a Christian, therefor it is not my bible, and the "morals" defined within are not my morals.

That does not make me a moral less person.

carguy123 wrote: One more point on the slavery issue. Slavery was brought up as if that was the be all and end all of any discussion, the point I had hoped to make was that it wasn't a big a deal back then as it is today. We've become sensitised to the issues. We've grown.

So the Founding Fathers were wrong on this issue. We've grown. I would agree with this. They did brilliant things, but they are not the ultimate source for guidance in today's America. We are. Just as they intended.

carguy123 wrote: One word - Kennedy. At least as far as the gimme, gimme, gimme part. Lincoln was the pres that destroyed the states Rights and Kennedy destroyed the states Will. Both the worst 2 presidents in the nation's history. If they hadn't been assassinated (coincidence or great forethought?) most people wouldn't remember them fondly.

What you are saying is that it's YOUR OPINION that the states should have more power and rights than the federal government, which is fine.

But there still is the line in the Consitution that gives the federal govenment power to tax for "common defence and general welfare"- which we get to define. So if one state decides that their general welfare = a version of emission law and another = medical healthcare like a put together group of countries- you should be able to see that we would be what the EU is today, which is actually crumbling around each other.

While it's true that rich states don't like supporting poor states of our union, that's very different than Germany holding up Greece, and how that fits together.

The way I see the states rights vs. federal govenment thing- I'm fine with the states doing things on their own- schools, roads, parks, etc. But when there's a key area they they have either demonsrated they are not actually capable, then it's ok for the government to step in OR if there is significant interstate commerce involved, so that we don't have a patch work of economic markets to deal with.

For example- California was the first state to have emission laws, none of the rest bothered, even though there were issues. So since California exercised it's states rights, then they get to make up their own rules. And the rest of the states can use them or the Federal rules- but that's it- since it would make development of stuff much more difficult to sell in a patchwork of laws.

Second example- recent healthcare- heathcare is far from a new topic- this has been an issue since the turn of the last century. All the states could do what they saw fit. The problem was that not enough people were getting coverage, so the federal govenment needed to step in to make sure there was coverage for enough. Thus we now have federal programs. Had the states stepped up and took it, this wouldn't have ever happend.

We don't really have a need for a huge military presence, but way before my time there was the Civilian Conservation Corp. They built many of the roads, bridges and parks you enjoy today. The concept was to give the people a job so they could survive today (there was a depression going on then too), but also to give them a skillset so they could survive tomorrow. It worked. Something along those lines could be adapted to our present day military so that we not only had the readiness capabilities but so that we could also build our futures. But then I think jail should be a punishment so that people have a bigger incentive not to do the crimes and therefore I think the prisoners should be doing unpaid work so that they pay back part of what they've taken away and also learn skills. But that's just me, I'm logical.

Funny you bring the CCC up. I thought you didn't like welfare, and I also thought you were against the current stimlus package.

The CCC was federal welfare/stimuls page that was far, far beyond what we are doing now.

So, which is it- you like the CCC or you don't like the current stimulus? They are exactly the same thing.

As for the whining about people who live off of welfare- tell me, do you know anyone who makes a living doing that? Are they really living, or merely surviving? Or, more correctly- do you REALLY know someone who has no incentive to work since they are fully on welfare? Really?

Because I know plenty of people who would much rather work, and earn better than "just survivable" income to live on. For that matter, I actually do not personally know anyone who lives ONLY one welfare and does not wish to work. So of the thousands of people I personally know, all of them have the desire to live and work.

carguy123 wrote: One more point on the slavery issue. Slavery was brought up as if that was the be all and end all of any discussion, the point I had hoped to make was that it wasn't a big a deal back then as it is today. We've become sensitised to the issues. We've grown. In the Civil War days it wasn't so much the slavery itself as much as the productivity it allowed. Remember we are talking about the very beginning of the mechanized industry. Once the north had big machines and could put the children as young as 5 to work they didn't care as much about slavery as the machines gave them the advantage. I've actually got to produce a little today myself so I can do things like eat so have fun guys.

For all of the lecuring that you are giving us to read our history, you may want to read your own- Slavery WAS a big issue in 1776. If not for the need fo cheap stuff, it would have never happend in the US.

You are killing your own arguments.

Funny how one word has radically different meanings for different people, and can cause a thread to completely derail in less than one page.

This is straying pretty far from the original topic so I'll try to keep my comments focused on that instead. What the founding fathers did, regardless of the slavery topic, was to create a government unlike any that had ever existed. They created one to limit the powers of the federal government, and give the power to citizens and the states. They created a system that would make it difficult for anyone with an agenda to put their will over the will of the majority.

Even they though realized that the country could stray from the concept as time went on. They tried to limit the power any one branch of the government could possess. Yes, we need people that have many different thoughts in our government. If you load it with only one side, you end up with what we have today, a system where any law can be passed regardless of whether it is good for the country, or if any citizen would vote for the law themselves. In our case, it is not good for either the Republicans or Democrats to have control. You need both to make it work.

Regardless of you may think of this country, it is still the only one in the world like it. Most of these people that I hear saying we need to be more like someone else (insert your favorite country here), they need to go live there for 10, 20, 30 or more years and then tell me what they think. There is a reason people want to immigrate here. We deal with a lot of other countries in my business, and trust me, some of these are horrible to work with, and the citizens can't believe how good we have when they visit.

We have a lot to be proud of in this country, and lot to be fearful of in our recent administrations. The total disregard of the Constitution and Bill or Rights is alarming, and this has been happening for years. Both Clinton and Bush did it, Obama might as well be in another country he's so bad, but so was Roosevelt, Kennedy and Johnson. Roosevelt and Johnson were at least as bad as Obama, as many of their Bills really were unconstitutional, and most contribute to our problems today. For just one example, look at how the Social Security Bill was written in regard to funding and you will see what I mean.

The point is, we have a right to protest and change our leaders. This needs to be protected at all costs. The minute you can't, there is a problem, be it Cindy Sheene (sp?), Beck or anyone. The biggest problem as I see it is a truly politically uneducated base of voters. Of course that falls in line with education in general. In my opinion, it is the leading problem facing our country today.

Personally, I'm proud of America in spite of her leaders. Government has a place and has contributed greatly to our society as a whole, so it isn't all bad, but it also has faults as well. It will never, ever be perfect, it can't. It's run by humans and we aren't perfect. But we can strive to make it the best place it can be, knowing that it will never achieve those goals.

alfadriver wrote:

carguy123 wrote: One more point on the slavery issue. Slavery was brought up as if that was the be all and end all of any discussion, the point I had hoped to make was that it wasn't a big a deal back then as it is today. We've become sensitised to the issues. We've grown. In the Civil War days it wasn't so much the slavery itself as much as the productivity it allowed. Remember we are talking about the very beginning of the mechanized industry. Once the north had big machines and could put the children as young as 5 to work they didn't care as much about slavery as the machines gave them the advantage. I've actually got to produce a little today myself so I can do things like eat so have fun guys.

For all of the lecuring that you are giving us to read our history, you may want to read your own- Slavery WAS a big issue in 1776. If not for the need fo cheap stuff, it would have never happend in the US. You are killing your own arguments.

Yes, slavery was a big issue in 1776 - big enough that it was a deterrent in getting the colonies to merge into a union. If slavery was made a focal point in forming the country, we'd have ended up as Europe (version 2.0) - indivdual countries sharing a common piece of real estate, but going about their own merry ways.

Some things have to be addressed in their own due time; slavery had to wait another century. Did resolution take too long? Arguably, it did. But it was resolved, and that is the most important thing.

Oh, what the heck, it's already pretty floundered up...

P.S. The cell phone is probably 1000 times more powerful...

oldsaw wrote: Some things have to be addressed in their own due time; slavery had to wait another century. Did resolution take too long? Arguably, it did. But it was resolved, and that is the most important thing.

We still have slavery in the U.S. of course. There's a whole industry bringing Mexicans into the U.S. and putting them to work with no pay and no option. They're here illegally so there isn't much they can do about it.

Bringing asian girls to the U.S. to work in the sex industry has been going on for ages. Still happens. Many of those "massage parlors" are human trafficing fronts.

Sorry, dragging things more off topic- just didn't want anyone thinking slavery was an historic issue in the U.S. But it is illegal now, and that's certainly a much better situation.

aircooled wrote: Oh, what the heck, it's already pretty floundered up... P.S. The cell phone is probably 1000 times more powerful...

You know that was faked by NASA, right?

Faked with a SLIDE RULE!!!

Keep fighting, guys. That is just what the illuminati wants you to do.

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

oldsaw wrote: Some things have to be addressed in their own due time; slavery had to wait another century. Did resolution take too long? Arguably, it did. But it was resolved, and that is the most important thing.

We still have slavery in the U.S. of course. There's a whole industry bringing Mexicans into the U.S. and putting them to work with no pay and no option. They're here illegally so there isn't much they can do about it. Bringing asian girls to the U.S. to work in the sex industry has been going on for ages. Still happens. Many of those "massage parlors" are human trafficing fronts. Sorry, dragging things more off topic- just didn't want anyone thinking slavery was an historic issue in the U.S. But it is illegal now, and that's certainly a much better situation.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! While we're 13 million miles off topic: The 'slavery' and 'forced sex' trades, as well as kidnapping for ransom, identity theft, and drug smuggling are almost exclusively a mexican thing, at least in my neck of the woods. The mexicans park brand new dually quad cab pickups up to their mailboxes to check their EBT statements so they'll know how many tacos I'll be paying for this week. Maybe it's just a regional thing. Doubt it.

Hey, if we're going to flounder towards immigration issues, let's go BIG!

Joe Babeau and Sgt. Friday vs. Eric Holder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VXQbj4Sy7A&feature=player_embedded

Otto_Maddox wrote: Keep fighting, guys. That is just what the illuminati wants you to do.

No, you're wrong. And I bet you're an Asian/Mexican sex slave.

I can't speak to 8th grade math, I have no 8th grade children, but my 6th grader just got moved to 7th grade math and she didn't even use a slide rule.

Let's recap.

My OP was to say that I'd never really realize how big a set the first Americans had to try to put a new system in place when they already had a system that worked. I'm not sure I'd have had the balls to do that.

Then I went on to say that I didn't understand the people who spoke out loud and proud about being in a subset of people that would included groups like being black/white/yellow/red/ethnic/previous country/etc. and yet weren't also as proud to be an American. That was it, period, done.

So basically I said even tho I'm a chicken by their standards I am proud to be an American and I sure wish more people were.

I even tried to get back on track with a post that reiterated the I'd never really thought about how hard it would have been to be one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

I tried hard not to be political even knowing that our system was set up to work only if you were political. You have to get involved more than just griping on the internet to make it work.

But somehow the post went elsewhere. Into the twilight zone based upon a number of the replies. This isn't anything at all near what my original intentions were, and quite frankly some of the posts seem to make my point better than I did.

But one quick reply. CCC vs. Welfare. The CCC was never intended to be permanent. It was in answer to the great depression and was a temporary way to get people off the Dole (back then no one wanted charity or welfare) and back to work. So it was Workfare, not welfare. And the added plus was that the country got something back for the money invested. The workers learned skills or were just able to live until things improved and the country got some really great parks as well as a lot of other public works projects. The reason I keep mentioning parks is that we camp a good bit and I'm surprised at the number of parks I go to that were built by the CCC. They really got around.

Welfare on the other hand is a way of life. If those of us who work and support that system are to continue to have

I really like the list of things someone posted of the things we have today because of the govt. That's one of the arguments used prior to the Civil War to show that a strong Federal govt was better than a strong state government. And no at no time did I say I preferred a strong state govt to a strong federal govt. I've never seen a strong state govt so I don't know all the drawbacks, but I would like to see less federal govt and more state govt. America is huge so many times one law or regulation isn't right for the whole country.

Now I'm done and am off to other threads.

carguy123 wrote: But somehow the post went elsewhere. Into the twilight zone based upon a number of the replies.

Wonder how that happened? It's not like there was any trolling or posting of obviously offensive material about, oh, say someone's religion.

carguy123 wrote: I won't subject you to my religious beliefs other than to say I'm not a Catholic because to me they're a shadow government trying to control the world at large rather than just a single country.

BTW, I am Catholic. Guess I just haven't been invited to the "let's take over the world" meetings yet. And yes, I found this a little offensive. And don't get me started on the Jews!

Where's Mel Gibson when you need him?

lol so i havent read all the posts since mine, as im on my cell and the tiny print sucks to read, but my point about slavery was how lost in history, and agendized the slavery issue has become with regard to the founding fathers. in no way was i rationalizing the practice, or justifying endentured servitude. its bad mmkay?!

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Bringing asian girls to the U.S. to work in the sex industry has been going on for ages. Still happens. Many of those "massage parlors" are human trafficing fronts.

At least this story has a Happy Ending.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

jg

Jensenman wrote:

ignorant wrote: patriotism is admiting cindy sheehan is an american hero. chew on that.

Then so is Glen Beck.

incorrect. Glenn beck is doing what he is doing to make money. No more no less.