Patriotism

EricM wrote: I am not a Christian, therefor it is not *my* bible, and the "morals" defined within are not my morals. That does not make me a moral less person.

I agree 100%.

Carguy said: My OP was to say that I'd never really realize how big a set the first Americans had to try to put a new system in place when they already had a system that worked. I'm not sure I'd have had the balls to do that.

Tell me about this system. My history is a tad rusty and by the way I'm officially old now, but wasn't that system under King George?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Bringing asian girls to the U.S. to work in the sex industry has been going on for ages. Still happens. Many of those "massage parlors" are human trafficing fronts.

At least this story has a Happy Ending.

As usual, you win the internets

I'd rather live now with Obama as prez and have cars exist, than live with the founding fathers and have nothing but a horse drawn carriage.

Joey

I'd rather be rich than stupid

"The Bill of Rights as a contract from the government to its subjects of things it won't snatch away at whim."

Um.....NO!

The Bill of Rights is a contract among the citizens to keep the Federal Government's power in check. And providing the meens to "clean the slate" and start over, if need be.

aircooled wrote: I'd rather be rich than stupid

I'd rather be stupid AND rich...

best of both worlds.

In reply to ignorant:

Well, at least you're halfway there!

j/k!

ignorant wrote:

Jensenman wrote:

ignorant wrote: patriotism is admiting cindy sheehan is an american hero. chew on that.

Then so is Glen Beck.

incorrect. Glenn beck is doing what he is doing to make money. No more no less.

But... but... you have said before the best thing any of us can do is make mucho money. Wouldn't that make him MORE patriotic than Sheehan?

(head explodes)

Honestly, here's the deal: Sheehan blames the government (or at least Bush) for the death of her son. So she did her level best to bring that message to the American people by demonstrating outside of Bush's compound in Crawford, TX. Seems she has found a way to make money off of it: http://sweetness-light.com/archive/did-cindy-sheehan-commit-fraud-with-charity-claim She has also jumped into the middle of the Deepwater Horizon thing and is refusing to pay any income taxes at all (isn't that a handy way to avoid reporting income?).

Beck feels that too much in the way of government handouts is destroying the country. So he started doing many different things to bring that message to the American public and along the way found out he could make money off of it. At least he's up front about it.

racerdave600 wrote: This is straying pretty far from the original topic so I'll try to keep my comments focused on that instead. What the founding fathers did, regardless of the slavery topic, was to create a government unlike any that had ever existed. They created one to limit the powers of the federal government, and give the power to citizens and the states. They created a system that would make it difficult for anyone with an agenda to put their will over the will of the majority. My bold: But not impossible, unfortunately. Even they though realized that the country could stray from the concept as time went on. They tried to limit the power any one branch of the government could possess. Yes, we need people that have many different thoughts in our government. If you load it with only one side, you end up with what we have today, a system where any law can be passed regardless of whether it is good for the country, or if any citizen would vote for the law themselves. In our case, it is not good for either the Republicans or Democrats to have control. You need both to make it work. Regardless of you may think of this country, it is still the only one in the world like it. Most of these people that I hear saying we need to be more like someone else (insert your favorite country here), they need to go live there for 10, 20, 30 or more years and then tell me what they think. There is a reason people want to immigrate here. We deal with a lot of other countries in my business, and trust me, some of these are horrible to work with, and the citizens can't believe how good we have when they visit. We have a lot to be proud of in this country, and lot to be fearful of in our recent administrations. The total disregard of the Constitution and Bill or Rights is alarming, and this has been happening for years. Both Clinton and Bush did it, Obama might as well be in another country he's so bad, but so was Roosevelt, Kennedy and Johnson. Roosevelt and Johnson were at least as bad as Obama, as many of their Bills really were unconstitutional, and most contribute to our problems today. For just one example, look at how the Social Security Bill was written in regard to funding and you will see what I mean. The point is, we have a right to protest and change our leaders. This needs to be protected at all costs. The minute you can't, there is a problem, be it Cindy Sheene (sp?), Beck or anyone. The biggest problem as I see it is a truly politically uneducated base of voters. Of course that falls in line with education in general. In my opinion, it is the leading problem facing our country today. Personally, I'm proud of America in spite of her leaders. Government has a place and has contributed greatly to our society as a whole, so it isn't all bad, but it also has faults as well. It will never, ever be perfect, it can't. It's run by humans and we aren't perfect. But we can strive to make it the best place it can be, knowing that it will never achieve those goals.

I will plagarize your post as representing my position perfectly. Thank you, sir. I will add there need to be term limits, that way we HAVE to get rid of what's becoming an entrenched ruling class.

Jensenman wrote: Beck feels that too much in the way of government handouts is destroying the country. So he started doing many different things to bring that message to the American public and along the way found out he could make money off of it. At least he's up front about it.

really? If I was a tin foil hat type like Dr. Hess I'd be thinking that beck is creating all of this fervor to increase sales of his overpriced gold coins.. Hmmmmmmmmmm!

ignorant wrote: really? If I was a tin foil hat type like Dr. Hess I'd be thinking that beck is creating all of this fervor to increase sales of his overpriced gold coins.. Hmmmmmmmmmm!

Sounds like something Al Gore would do with a book and a film.

oldsaw wrote:

ignorant wrote: really? If I was a tin foil hat type like Dr. Hess I'd be thinking that beck is creating all of this fervor to increase sales of his overpriced gold coins.. Hmmmmmmmmmm!

Sounds like something Al Gore would do with a book and a film.

don't get me started on that idiot.

The problem with comparing ourselves to the founding fathers is that they didn't have a terrible surrogate that for better or worse, is a terrible irritant in the gears of government.

Mass media.

I don't care who you like to get your news from, its all the same problem that the founding fathers recognised if you read their writings, especially Washington's on the Constitution.

The politics of persuasion is dying a death rattle, and the politics of demonization/sensationalisation has been taking over since the late 70s. The media exacerbates a pre-existing human condition that was much more controllable in a face-2-face world the founding fathers lived in. But the flow of information and anonymity of the internet affords unbelievable shelter to drive-by political slander, and the act of presuasion and convincing wilt with the short attention spans of the voters.

Pay close attention to some of what Washington was saying:

"...the only question with me was, whether it would go forth under favourable auspices, or be branded with the mark of disapprobation. The opponents, I expected, (for it has ever been, that the adversaries to a measure are more active than its friends) would endeavour to give it an unfavourable complexion, with a view to biass the public mind. This, evidently, is the case with the writers in opposition; for their objections are better calculated to alarm the fears, than to convince the judgment of their readers. They build them upon principles which do not exist in the Constitution -...and then, as if the doctrine was uncontrovertable, draw such consequences as are necessary to rouse the apprehensions of the ignorant, & unthinking. It is not the interest of the major part of these characters to be convinced; nor will their local views yield to arguments which do not accord with their present, or future prospects... ...To say that the Constitution may be strained, and an improper interpretation given to some of the clauses or articles of it, will apply to any that can be framed--in a word renders any one nugatory--for not one, more than another, can be binding, if the spirit and letter of the expression is disregarded. It is agreed on all hands that no government can be well administred without powers; and yet, the instant these are delegated, altho those who are entrusted with the Administration are taken from the people--return shortly to them again--and must feel the bad effect of oppressive measures--the persons holding them, as if their natures were immediately metamorphosed, are denominated tyrants and no disposition is allowed them, but to do wrong. ....neither my reasoning, nor my experience, has yet been able to discover the propriety of preventing men from doing good, because there is a possibility of their doing evil."

ignorant wrote:

oldsaw wrote:

ignorant wrote: really? If I was a tin foil hat type like Dr. Hess I'd be thinking that beck is creating all of this fervor to increase sales of his overpriced gold coins.. Hmmmmmmmmmm!

Sounds like something Al Gore would do with a book and a film.

don't get me started on that idiot.

Touche'.

I have always found it interesting that patriotism and capitalism have pretty much always been out of favor with the intelligentsia, even though its results (freedom and profit) are what allow them to rest on their butts and look down on the proletariat.

But back to the OP's point: regardless of their faults of nepotism, slavery, sexism, debauchery and whatever the Founding Fathers were brave enough to risk their lives for a grand experiment in self governance, the like of which had never been seen before. As Franklin said, 'We must hang together else we shall certainly hang separately'.

And here we are pissing all that hard work away and squandering the opportunities to pull together for the common good that they wrote into the Constitution.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Bringing asian girls to the U.S. to work in the sex industry has been going on for ages. Still happens. Many of those "massage parlors" are human trafficing fronts.

At least this story has a Happy Ending.

I'm sorry, that's just too good. Thank you for that.

Pretty sure that Sheehans son joined the millitary on his own free will. I dont think W or Billy or anyone else forced the brave young PATRIOT to risk his life for his country.

I always wondered why it is someone else's fault that the young man lost his life and not his fault for doing something that would endanger it on his own free will.

Yes the coffee is hot. You did order HOT coffee. And yet you are angry that the HOT coffee that you ordered burned your lap after YOU spilled it. Obviously not your fault.

The civil war was fought over taxs. Lincoln owned slaves and Lee did not.

Or if you where to ask my Irish family the Englsih Yanks where angry that the lowly Irish in the south where making too much money and not sharing it.

I'm still bummed that Pluto is no longer a planet. Poor little dude.