PC frustration

So, the old Toshiba XP box is getting pretty haggard with some screen problems and a battery that's on fumes. All I need is a laptop that can datalog cars and run a couple of specialized apps which are pretty low-effort. Basically, the minimum laptop on sale should handle it.

I stopped by Best Buy and grabbed a fairly minumum laptop. Crap build quality, but what do you expect for something that's built to only last a couple of years. Let me point out that I started programming back on a Commodore PET in 1983 or so and currently run a multi-million dollar ecommerce website on a Unix server that I maintain. I'm not a complete computer idiot.

First problem, I can't fire it up until it gets an internet connection. Okay, a few hours later that's possible.

Now I try to hook it in to my company domain so I can use the shared drive to transfer data. Nope, Windows 10 Home doesn't do domains, it's for grandparents or something. Fine, for $99 I can upgrade from Windows Hobbled Edition to Windows At Least As Good As XP. They call it Pro.

I follow the prompts, pay my $99 and...nothing. Well, one thing. It changes my easy-to-use laptop password to the strong one I generated for the Microsoft webstore, one that looks like a cat threw up on the keyboard.

So I contact support and I'm told to go back to the Store and click on Update again. I do, and it just sits there and looks at me.

Contact support again. A tech logs into my machine and turns off the Windows firewall, because Windows was preventing Windows from updating Windows. Okay, it's installed.

But now it needs to be activated. It won't activate and keeps implying I have a fake version of Windows. At this point, I can't even change my password. I call up support and another tech logs in and uses a couple of back doors on the box to activate Windows.

So now it's 7 PM. I'm still at work and at about the place I needed to be at 9 AM. I managed to create a local user that doesn't have admin privileges and I've even mapped my network drives - which was the whole point.

None of this was a difficult ask. All I wanted to do was to update from Home to Pro on a brand new machine fresh out of the box. People ask why I keep computers so long, and why I put my parents on OSX. Here's a good reason!

That's a special brand of really frustrating PC problems I must say. At least you got all of that resolved in one day.

I knew there was a reason I did not take the "free" update to Win10.

Thank you for the reaffirmation.

Still running XP on my Eee Pcee for tuning and Vista on her notebook.

I found that you have to turn off auto update because it has dependancies for the latest IE which of course will not install.

This makes auto-update loose it's mind and consume 99% of the available CPU if it is left on.

Uhh. I'm limping along a 6 year old Win7 laptop. I've had 2 Chromebooks that died on me that served me well enough but had limitations. This story has reinforced my desire to never give another cent to MS. That leaves me at a mac when I get around to getting a new computer.

I offered the gurl a rock solid desktop with win7 (i think) and a big monitor for her vista lap top.

I tested the notebook out on a Mint live CD and it seems like I can get the basics to work.

Somehow I blew up her profile and now the vista notebook is really fast, so she declined.

If you are still running XP, there's a registry hack to convince it that it is really a Point of Sale machine (i.e., a cash register) and thus it will still get critical updates from MS. Otherwise, go with 7 or one of the *ix's.

The Windows tech told me 8.1 was his favorite Unfortunately, the software I need to run doesn't get full abilities with XP. Unix or OSX isn't really an option alas.

Should have looked for a Win7 machine. My bad. I just assumed that all the MS machines came with the latest OS only. Maybe I'll see if I can hot rod this thing to be something else or see if I can return it if it continues to give trouble. The cost of the hardware is nothing compared to the lost time today.

You've pretty much summed up why instead of buying a cheap new laptop, I tend to buy off-lease high end Lenovo ones for the same money.

Win10 actually isn't so bad (other than the intrusive snooping, which can be mostly turned off) but I think the big issue is/was that you started with the home edition. If you can, I'd use the media creation tool to get a fresh, clean installer and re-install Win10 Pro from there.

I don't know what to say other than that I feel your pain. That sort of go-round is always just utterly maddening. You get through it just feeling like there's no way any one incident should have been so frustrating or eaten so much time, yet somehow the experience is all too common.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006740%204016%20600514776%2050010418&IsNodeId=1&SpeTabStoreType=97&name=Laptops%20%2f%20Notebooks&isdeptsrh=1

Have you tried running the Windows-only software under Wine on Linux? I've been surprised how well it works sometimes. Other times, it's not so good. But it's worth a shot.

Dr. Hess wrote: If you are still running XP, there's a registry hack to convince it that it is really a Point of Sale machine (i.e., a cash register) and thus it will still get critical updates from MS. Otherwise, go with 7 or one of the *ix's.

But what about the current version IE dependencies of auto update?

Is this only Auto update that is affected? Not manual updating?

Where can I find info about the POS registry hack?

EDIT: found the registry hack here

I solve this by using a workstation quality laptop running Debian and I use VirtualBox to keep virtual machines of XP/7/8.1/os-x versions and so on for whatever I need. I keep base copies so when I need a new one I copy the plain-jane VM I need and add the software I need for that particular application. It's also easy to back them up or move them to a different machine if I need to. Just stop and copy the VM.

It lets me live in the unix environment I prefer and always have compatibility handy for crap software vendors, testing, specific tasks (like a complete development server in a can) or VPN incompatibility... etc

I use this scheme for work primarily but I do have one set up for HPDE student analysis using AIM software with drivers for their products.

TL/DR: Buy a good machine running your preferred operating system and use VM software to create the environment(s) you need.

My new windows 10 unit still won't print to my network printer. I've yet to give up using the old windows 7 one but have to at some point for logging And tuning because battery on old one is toast and hdd is giving up

Pat, you know a new battery is like almost free on amazon, and a hard drive for that thing isn't much more on tiger direct.

BoxheadTim wrote: You've pretty much summed up why instead of buying a cheap new laptop, I tend to buy off-lease high end Lenovo ones for the same money. Win10 actually isn't so bad (other than the intrusive snooping, which can be mostly turned off) but I think the big issue is/was that you started with the home edition. If you can, I'd use the media creation tool to get a fresh, clean installer and re-install Win10 Pro from there.

Apparently changing from Home to Pro is just unlocking capabilities with a license, it's not a new OS install. When it finally got unborked enough to do something, the change happened very quickly. So I don't think starting with a Pro OS would have made any difference other than saving me a day of pain in the ass. The big issue was that I wanted to unlock those capabilities, which is supposed to be an easy "click here and pay your money" process.

Yeah, there are lots of complex ways I could try to accomplish all this. Thing is, all I really wanted was the equivalent of a Harbor Freight tool. It doesn't have to do much, just run some software that's happier on a newer machine than XP. And yes, talk to my work domain like a normal computer can. I don't want to build up a Linux box or anything like that, I just wanted an inexpensive, easy to use tool and not have to screw around. My time is better spent using my tools than fixing my tools.

When my wife wanted a new laptop, I picked up a Macbook Pro that's four years old, swapped out the optical drive for a SSD and stuffed it full of RAM. It'll run circles around this new little Lenovo and has dramatically better build quality. But it won't run the software I need without doing a bunch of work, and the new laptop was supposed to just be a simple, easy purchase that could be used out of the box.

Meanwhile this new machine is also complaining about incompatible drivers/control panel for the touchpad. Sheesh. Simply trying to change the response of the pad throws up repeated error boxes. And apparently there are two levels of configuration screens for Win 10 - the friendly ones that give you big buttons but don't do much, and the old XP style that let you actually do things. So I've found those, which is good. But seriously, it's like buying a new car and finding out that it has one wheel the wrong size and the throttle occasionally stops working.

JoeTR6 wrote: Have you tried running the Windows-only software under Wine on Linux? I've been surprised how well it works sometimes. Other times, it's not so good. But it's worth a shot.

Yes, this! If you have a fairly fast machine running Linux, I would see if you can get your application running with Wine. I've been surprised at how many windows programs do well with it. With an older Linux box like mine though, the performance can be a bit laggy.

low end Lenovo laptops are garbage. I have one for work and I spend more time coercing it into working than actually working.

I just finished a new home build tower and had zero issues getting it running, updated and hooning along at a high clip doing video production and high-end gaming. Silly that a corporation dedicated to building computers can't do it more smoothly than I can.

I use a Lenovo B50 or B40, I forget, laptop. I use it as my media center, connected to the TV. It was $199 on sale, brand new from TD. I added some RAM to whatever it could handle. I did have to send it back for warranty service once (dead MB), but it has been fine after that. I have no other complaints.

JoeTR6 wrote: Have you tried running the Windows-only software under Wine on Linux? I've been surprised how well it works sometimes. Other times, it's not so good. But it's worth a shot.

If this were me (and I have had my own set of W10 issues), my answer is that a new computer should just work without any major alterations.

On the other hand, if I were building the machine myself, then any alterations are up in the air.

But I have the expectation that new stuff should work as well and easily as old stuff. Especially a new in box from a box store.

1988RedT2 wrote:

JoeTR6 wrote: Have you tried running the Windows-only software under Wine on Linux? I've been surprised how well it works sometimes. Other times, it's not so good. But it's worth a shot.

Yes, this! If you have a fairly fast machine running Linux, I would see if you can get your application running with Wine. I've been surprised at how many windows programs do well with it. With an older Linux box like mine though, the performance can be a bit laggy.

My garage laptop is an HP 8470p laptop with Linux Mint on it. I run a VM of an XP machine in VMware so I can run the BMW INPA program. Works great for that. I really only did is this way to see if I could get it to work. I would use Windows7 otherwise, and if the program needed XP, just use the XP mode built into Win7.

alfadriver wrote:

JoeTR6 wrote: Have you tried running the Windows-only software under Wine on Linux? I've been surprised how well it works sometimes. Other times, it's not so good. But it's worth a shot.

If this were me (and I have had my own set of W10 issues), my answer is that a new computer should just work without any major alterations. On the other hand, if I were building the machine myself, then any alterations are up in the air. But I have the expectation that new stuff should work as well and easily as old stuff. Especially a new in box from a box store.

Certainly. But like cars, you can make a few improvements here and there. Especially when the manufacturer gets it wrong.

What I do with a new computer is shrink the Windows partition down to make room for a Linux partition and dual boot the computer. For the most part, I can do everything on Linux and am much happier for it. Some software (usually games) will only run under Windows, so it occasionally get booted. If you have a fast enough computer, you can also run VMs. But not so much on a low-end laptop.

JoeTR6 wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

JoeTR6 wrote: Have you tried running the Windows-only software under Wine on Linux? I've been surprised how well it works sometimes. Other times, it's not so good. But it's worth a shot.

If this were me (and I have had my own set of W10 issues), my answer is that a new computer should just work without any major alterations. On the other hand, if I were building the machine myself, then any alterations are up in the air. But I have the expectation that new stuff should work as well and easily as old stuff. Especially a new in box from a box store.

Certainly. But like cars, you can make a few improvements here and there. Especially when the manufacturer gets it wrong. What I do with a new computer is shrink the Windows partition down to make room for a Linux partition and dual boot the computer. For the most part, I can do everything on Linux and am much happier for it. Some software (usually games) will only run under Windows, so it occasionally get booted. If you have a fast enough computer, you can also run VMs. But not so much on a low-end laptop.

If you WANT to make improvements, that one thing.

If you NEED to make improvements, that's what I'm talking about. I would never buy a new car that had to be modified just to satisfy the basic needs of transportation. Just like I would never buy a computer that would have to be modified to satisfy the basic needs of a computer.

I'm 100% not interested in buying a MS or iOS computer and installing some other operating system- that makes no sense. It's just as if I bought a renovated home but hate the new kitchen so much that I rip it out- pay a higher price due to the renovation, just to do it over.

My old POS computers- those are more for some other light weight OS.

I have a Tosh Laptop at the house with 10 home on it. I have modded the crap out of it get it like XP. Totally worth it.

Only one BSOD

Keith Tanner wrote: Apparently changing from Home to Pro is just unlocking capabilities with a license, it's not a new OS install. When it finally got unborked enough to do something, the change happened very quickly. So I don't think starting with a Pro OS would have made any difference other than saving me a day of pain in the ass. The big issue was that I wanted to unlock those capabilities, which is supposed to be an easy "click here and pay your money" process.

It should be a simple process. My take on wiping the OS is usually that it also helps to get rid of all the vendor provided garbage at the same time. Which is why my wife's laptop is also going to get that treatment when I drop an SSD in it.

Keith Tanner wrote: My time is better spent using my tools than fixing my tools.

Ain't that the truth. Unfortunately that seems to be less and less the case with non-business computers these days.

Keith Tanner wrote: When my wife wanted a new laptop, I picked up a Macbook Pro that's four years old, swapped out the optical drive for a SSD and stuffed it full of RAM. It'll run circles around this new little Lenovo and has dramatically better build quality. But it won't run the software I need without doing a bunch of work, and the new laptop was supposed to just be a simple, easy purchase that could be used out of the box.

Downside with MacBooks and other Apple computer hardware is that Apple is really good at discontinuing support for them, both from an OS and a hardware standpoint.

That said, given your ordeal, it most likely would've been much quicker to Bootcamp that Macbook. I've had pretty good succes with that for non-gaming type of use.

Keith Tanner wrote: Meanwhile this new machine is also complaining about incompatible drivers/control panel for the touchpad. Sheesh. Simply trying to change the response of the pad throws up repeated error boxes. And apparently there are two levels of configuration screens for Win 10 - the friendly ones that give you big buttons but don't do much, and the old XP style that let you actually do things. So I've found those, which is good. But seriously, it's like buying a new car and finding out that it has one wheel the wrong size and the throttle occasionally stops working.

Now that blows, especially with the annoying way Win10 downloads drivers. Any chance Lenovo has the correct drivers on their site? Win10 might have decided that it really likes the MS-approved drivers better than the OEM ones.