sooo, ummmm, who wants to get into the tesla-swapping biz with me?
sooo, ummmm, who wants to get into the tesla-swapping biz with me?
In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :
I'm going to need to know where you're sourcing that electricity from, Sir. If it's free range and carbon neutral.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :
I'm going to need to know where you're sourcing that electricity from, Sir. If it's free range and carbon neutral.
It's from a bunch of emission-defeated diesels running generators, but I get to say it is carbon neutral because I buy the credits.
In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :
You're such a brilliant successful capitalist, I'm curious as to where your MBA is from.
93EXCivic said:I really want to K-swap my Civic but stuff like this is really making me wonder if I should.
But B-series are getting expensive and aren't as powerful. And a D-series sure isn't unless turbo and I don't know about track use reliablity.
There is an immobilizer bypass available for the K-series that allows you to run the stock ECU.
Just to stir the pot with another object example of how it works.
There are a lot of laws that if the government fully enforced would make motorsports use of a production built road vehicle miserable and its not just the EPA.
Case in point https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/30122
Want a shop to prep and cage a car for you? Does it involve removing an airbag , stock seatbelts, etc? Thankfully, for a variety of reasons, it hasn't become an enforcement priority.
That's just it, it wasn't an EPA enforcement priority, until it became so widespread that it began making a difference. The congress wanted to make our environment cleaner, they passed laws. EPA moved down the list and got to this. RPM act is the right way to go. Don't complain that the regulators are doing what your elected officials told them to do. If your real complaint is that they took so long to get to enforcing it, then are you arguing for more funding/personnel to make a stronger government? The no government approach with no regulators will lead to all kinds of crap from irresponsible people that will hurt us all, so its not a great option. We can sit here and complain about our government one way or another, but target motivating congress to carve out a responsible niche for what matters to us, not wholesale oversimplifications that wont actually solve anything and just rile people up so they can have yet another red vs blue fight.
How hard do we want to flounder this thread anyways? Who wants to take bets on how many pages it will take to get locked?
It's like going back to prohibition and vilifying the cop busting the speakeasy instead of working for the repeal of the Volstead Act (not meaning repeal the clean air act, but to get congress to modify it with something like the RPM act). Look beyond the end of your nose.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:sooo, ummmm, who wants to get into the tesla-swapping biz with me?
And everyone knows all those rare earth minerals are the cleanest thing around. Certainly no bloodshed or environmental disasters there. Nuh uh, no sir, don't look too hard please.
As for the topic at hand, I'm glad I got my MS3 when the getting was good. I wonder how long until I get a letter saying that they have a record of one being sold and want proof of my race car?
Half of me wants to go buy all the engine parts that I have a vague notion I might need for the next 5 years of car projects.
The other half wants to give it up altogether, buy something newer that has the performance out of the box, and pretend I'm happy.
Overly dramatic? Maybe, but I'm struggling to come up with a positive way to look at it when the specific part of playing with cars that I love is building engines and playing with the tuning to see how well I can get it all to work.
loosecannon said:I see a lot of discussion about the legality of selling piggyback ECU's but not enough discussion about getting the US government to change the law or modify the law so enthusiasts can tune their cars. I'm surprised so many auto enthusiasts are willing to roll over and let the man take away their ability to tinker with their car.
The tune is one of the emissions control devices. If you alter the tune, you have defeated the emissions system.
It may be your car but it's not your roads or your air. The "roads" part does not have any distinction between street cars modified to be race-use-only, or modified street cars, which is where there is some legislation trying to get sponsored/passed to make a distinction. The "air" part is where that legislation may fail.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:Interesting it was Hondata this time. I see HPTuners being next...
Hopefully they leave the standalone folks alone, considering there isn't any pretending they satisfy emissions and should only be used on competition only vehicles
HPTuners has removed some functionality in the past. You used to be able to use it to alter/delete certain emissions functions on Diesels, that was taken away with successive software updates. It'd be no difficulty, and something with precedent, to take away certain functionalities for gasoline engines too. Maybe so far as to only allow you to change non emissions related items like VATS, or... that's about it.
loosecannon said:In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
I understand but there needs to be some kind of process where people with already modified or in the middle of being modified aren't caught in the EPA net. Example: tell everyone that cars built after 2024 will not be allowed to have any emissions devices defeated or modified. This would at least give businesses and individuals a chance to prepare and adjust. The current rules seem to indicate that the EPA can fine businesses for modifying or defeating any emissions device on cars built after 1970 and that seems way too far reaching
That is because in 1970, you were not allowed to have any emissions devices altered or deleted. There is 53 years of precedent, here. There is nothing new happening, it is just that certain highly visible elements and public outcry are forcing them to stop looking the other way.
And they did go after people in the early 70s, the examples I can think of were dealerships dropping big block crate engines in Camaros and Novas and Vegas.
gearheadE30 said:Overly dramatic? Maybe, but I'm struggling to come up with a positive way to look at it when the specific part of playing with cars that I love is building engines and playing with the tuning to see how well I can get it all to work.
The positive I'm struggling to draw from all this is that it might force me to roll my own MS-style engine computer, which means learning more about circuitry and programming.
Or I'll just keep fiddling with stuff old enough that they don't care.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
You used to be able to make emissions monitors read "not reporting, ready" with HP Tuners. So the car would have passing monitors to the smog scans but you wouldn't actually need to have the gear there at all.
So that's a blatant violation of the emissions laws, not sure if you can still do that with HP Tuners anymore...
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
How does this effect FM?
It seems clear most of FM's products can be used on the street.
Motor swaps? Turbos?
Checking back in while I wait for a server to get its head together...
It has definitely affected FM.
It was a major factor in us dropping programmable ECUs a few years back. There were other factors, but that was certainly part of it.
Our turbo kits are legal because we have gone through the trouble and expense of getting an EO - that is an accepted way to prove to the EPA that emissions are not adversely affected. We did the same with a supercharger kit for the NC but unfortunately that product fell off the market. We've also got EOs for a few other things and more are in progress.
A few other parts have disappeared from the catalog.
Motor swaps can be done cleanly but it's an expensive thing to prove so the ROI has to be there. Since that was more of a high profile part of our business than a profitable one, it's quite likely you will not be seeing us swap internal combustion engines in the future. Electric conversions? That would be fun.
But that's just the power stuff. We have a pretty big catalog, and luckily all that handling/braking/safety/other stuff isn't affected.
It hasn't been painless. We've had to make some decisions we really didn't want to make and it's definitely shifted our product line and even our position in the market. It's easy to ignore what's coming and just keep chasing the high profile, big power stuff that's so good for your reputation, but of course you need to take action before you have a problem. Making emissions a priority before our competition did definitely hurt us (I think only one has a single EO to their name), but we're in this game for the long run. I've been in countless meetings and round table discussions and public hearings to stay on top of this. It's actually pretty interesting even if it's not popular.
gearheadE30 said:Half of me wants to go buy all the engine parts that I have a vague notion I might need for the next 5 years of car projects.
The other half wants to give it up altogether, buy something newer that has the performance out of the box, and pretend I'm happy.
Overly dramatic? Maybe, but I'm struggling to come up with a positive way to look at it when the specific part of playing with cars that I love is building engines and playing with the tuning to see how well I can get it all to work.
There are still pre-emissions vehicles that can be tinkered with, and in the past it's been fine to put newer stock engines into older vehicles because the assumption was that the newer engine would be cleaner, so a lot of the engine swaps that people actually want to do have been acceptable. There is also the option of aftermarket manufacturers testing and having their part 'CARB certified' (I've got approved headers and supercharger on my truck).
California has had the strictest vehicle modification rules in the nation for a couple of decades, and there's still a massive performance car and modifying scene. There are plenty of legal engine swaps, aftermarket boost solutions, etc all over that state.
I think there will be a downsizing of the aftermarket, and prices likely go up, but it's not the death of hot rodding or performance vehicles yet.
docwyte said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
You used to be able to make emissions monitors read "not reporting, ready" with HP Tuners. So the car would have passing monitors to the smog scans but you wouldn't actually need to have the gear there at all.
So that's a blatant violation of the emissions laws, not sure if you can still do that with HP Tuners anymore...
You still can, as of the version I downloaded a couple months ago.
STM317 said:in the past it's been fine to put newer stock engines into older vehicles because the assumption was that the newer engine would be cleaner, so a lot of the engine swaps that people actually want to do have been acceptable.
This is actually a somewhat recent-ish development. Before the late 80s or maybe early 90s, THAT wasn't legal. It took a fair amount of lobbying by enthusiast groups to get swapping modern drivetrains in older cars legal.
You DO have to use the whole emissions system though, and in the case of something like an OBD-II engine swap, this includes the converters in their original locations, the complete/functioning evap system, etc. I mean, this was always the case, but pre-OBD-II evap systems were fairly simple in comparison, and they were largely just like the evap systems from the 70s.
Now a question. How does alt-fuel conversions work on the Federal level? On the state level, in Ohio, alt fuel converted vehicles were exempt from emissions testing. Not sure if E85 counts as an alt-fuel or if that strictly would be LPG/CNG. LPG conversions were pretty popular on performance cars down under, for a while anyway. Lots of octane, lots of charge air cooling when the stuff would go from whatever injection pressure to manifold pressure, and there's no worry about mixture distribution problems like with a carbureted system because the fuel is a gas, not a liquid.
"BullE36 M3!"
"PigE36 M3, actually..." 
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Then I'd expect the EPA to hammer HP tuners in short order....
I suspect there are already discussions underway and have been for some time. Messing with the OBD systems is a big, big no-no and the recent publication made that very clear.
In reply to docwyte :
Frankly, I'm surprised they have lasted as long as they have.
Also makes me wonder if Openflash tablets are going to become contraband soon 
, given that they allow for map editing.
I'm curious about this law. Are companies at risk for selling this stuff, or just installing it? The reason I ask is modifying your emissions system is against the law, but I assume possessing the aftermarket pcm is not, correct? So in my mind,you can have it, you can sell it to me, and no law is broken until it's used on a car, right?
gearheadmb said:I'm curious about this law. Are companies at risk for selling this stuff, or just installing it?
Both.
A little known registration law, from before most any of us were born, that is still on the books in some places ( but has never been enforced - that I'm aware of) is that when you register a car, it assumes the engine number matches the car... if you change the engine, you must notify the dmv of the new number, so they can change your paperwork 
Can you imagine walking in your local dmv, and trying to explain that ?
Some also now require a paint color on the registration. I asked, when I first registerd my jalopy " what color would you call all the rust, and missing metal from cancer?" One of the few dmv clerks that thought that was funny! And yes, if you paint it a different color, you must notify dmv, or the registration is not valid.
I just bought a car that confuses me on this issue.
The car is a 1985 E28 which was originally diesel and has been 4th gen LS swapped and is running a GM computer tuned with HP Tuners. Fully street driven.
Would the basis for comparison be the emissions from the original car chassis identified by the VIN? If so, it's likely my emissions are less (though completely different). If the basis for comparison is the original LS donor vehicle, then it's likely it is worse.
As I understand it, the car even made it through CA testing, because there was a loophole for diesel vehicles swapped to gas.
Is this car likely to be legal or illegal?
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