Real Estate trust thingy.... not sure how to make this work.

My family owns a farm in WV.  It's the farm my grandfather bought when he married my grandmother and it's where my dad grew up.  After grandpa died in 2003, we kept the farm.  Dad and I (and an impromptu group of camp "members") use it as a hunting/fishing camp about 6-8 times a year, and the family uses it as a vacation getaway spot.  My parents have the means to pay some neighbors who happily mow the lawn, keep an eye on things, and they harvest the hay and have free access to hunting on the property.  It's a nice handshake agreement.

I have a feeling when my parents pass on, my sister and I won't be in the same financial situation to be able to pay the taxes, pay for the upkeep on 124 acres and maintenance to the house and outbuildings, so our choice would likely be to sell the property.  We really don't want to do that.  Her kids (the great-grandsons) are in their late teens/early 20s and they love the property just like we all do.  It was "the homestead."  Holidays, campouts, family reunions... it was the family hub and still is in many ways.

The property is beautiful.  My dream as a kid was to turn it into a big campground, but the investment to make it a campground would be astronomical, and it is in a rural area accessed by a single, tiny road.  Instead - my sister, her boys (my nephews) and I have been daydreaming about how it might be best used as a wilderness/hiking/nature center.

Is there a way to set some kind of non-profit structure along with a local college/institution where we could be kinda board members?  We could maintain the use of the land, but it could be used by the institution for education in biology, ecology, forestry, history, etc.  I'm not looking to get rich, I'm thinking of entering into a partnership in which we could share the property and let others benefit from it while generating enough revenue to (at the least) maintain the property and trails or (at best) become a great outdoor/wilderness area.  My ideal thought would be a cooperative endeavor with the science department at the local college; some classrooms/labs, forestry education, etc.  Both Dad and Grandpa were biology teachers, and the property is a brilliant classroom for that.  Another thought is simply a wilderness/hiking area, but my only experience with those types of parks are "family donated land to the county or state."

There will likely be a time when future generations of the family don't care about it.  If that happens, the property could be donated to the institution, or held in trust for members of those generations.  I'm just curious on some basic info about how this kind of thing might work.  My idea of non-profit stuff is that I listen to NPR and I work for a non-profit, but I have zero idea how it works in the real world.

WWGRMD.  Land you may soon inherit that you can't afford to maintain, can't imagine losing because it's important to the family, but want to make it into something that educates and enriches others as well.

What do the property taxes run there? I'm guessing around $200/mo? WV has one of the lowest property taxes in the country. Seems like renting out the house would bring enough revenue to cover taxes and upkeep. More hassle, but probably less hassle than trying to deal with running a non-profit and then not having full control of the property.

Here's another idea, rent out storage space in the outbuildings to enable other GRMers to hoard excess projects?

If you leave the house vacant and properly winterize it, another option would be to just split the costs amongst the family members that use it. Should be much easier to afford with costs split multiple ways.

Final thought. Airbnb? 

Is there actually a local college/institution that you think would be interested?  A lot of them, especially the smaller ones, are financially struggling these days so it may be a difficult deal to work out.  Can the farmland (assuming it's tillable) be rented out to neighbor farmers?  My sister-in-law and her brother did that for years with the land they inherited from her grandfather, and they made money on the deal.

Based on my father's experience, talk to the Nature Conservancy.  They appear to be pretty experienced in this sort of thing, and you'd likely be able to serve on an advisory board at the local or state level.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

My parents have the means to pay some neighbors who happily mow the lawn, keep an eye on things, and they harvest the hay and have free access to hunting on the property.  It's a nice handshake agreement.

I have a feeling when my parents pass on, my sister and I won't be in the same financial situation to be able to pay the taxes, pay for the upkeep on 124 acres and maintenance to the house and outbuildings, so our choice would likely be to sell the property.  We really don't want to do that. 

Is there any chance your parents' estate will be sufficient to continue paying for the maintenance for a significant period of time?

Also, my grandparents' (now my uncle's) farm hasn't been farmed by the family in decades. They rent out the farmable land to other neighboring farmers. I'm not sure if this is a paper or handshake agreement, but it covers the important stuff while keeping personal use of the property (including hunting) in the family. I believe there are still the occasional talks of selling off the farmable land while keeping the house, woods, and marsh... Which would functionally be pretty much accomplish the same end result.

Driven5 said:

Also, my grandparents' (now my uncle's) farm hasn't been farmed by the family in decades. They rent out the farmable land to other neighboring farmers. I'm not sure if this is a paper or handshake agreement, but it covers the important stuff while keeping personal use of the property (including hunting) in the family. I believe there are still the occasional talks of selling off the farmable land while keeping the house, woods, and marsh... Which would functionally be pretty much accomplish the same end result.

Leasing the land to other farmers was what I was thinking, too.  Other than the cost to write up the contracts, this is simple income to your family.

BTW, you should also sit down and consider who is named as the owners.  That's where you want to set up a trust, as a bare minimum- all of the intended owners as trustees.  As the family ages, the kids will get legal control- which is good.

Turn it into a deer farm?

Some friends have some wooded acreage that they had reclassified as "protected" or something similar and it greatly reduced their property tax rate. Not sure how much your taxes are, or if that's an option for you but every little bit helps.

It would be a shame to loose that place. Maybe talk to a local attorney and a local real estate agent.

Driven5 said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

My parents have the means to pay some neighbors who happily mow the lawn, keep an eye on things, and they harvest the hay and have free access to hunting on the property.  It's a nice handshake agreement.

I have a feeling when my parents pass on, my sister and I won't be in the same financial situation to be able to pay the taxes, pay for the upkeep on 124 acres and maintenance to the house and outbuildings, so our choice would likely be to sell the property.  We really don't want to do that. 

Is there any chance your parents' estate will be sufficient to continue paying for the maintenance for a significant period of time?

Also, my grandparents' (now my uncle's) farm hasn't been farmed by the family in decades. They rent out the farmable land to other neighboring farmers. I'm not sure if this is a paper or handshake agreement, but it covers the important stuff while keeping personal use of the property (including hunting) in the family. I believe there are still the occasional talks of selling off the farmable land while keeping the house, woods, and marsh... Which would functionally be pretty much accomplish the same end result.

I don't really know any exact numbers about mom and dad's net worth.  I think the estate would pay for taxes and maintenance, the question is... if I had that money, would I personally choose to spend it on that.  Mom and dad view it as a proportional investment, but I'm not sure I would.  I was hoping to make it a trails/picnic/hiking/park thing where the family retained the property/rights, but some form of business to support the costs, have a few employees for maintenance, etc.

The land is potentially farm-able.  It would have to be livestock.  The property is a narrow valley and the only meadow is clear at the bottom.  At its widest point, the flat part at the bottom is about 200 yards wide, but it's 1/4 mile long.  Grandma and Grandpa had some luck with a garden, but I don't think the sun exposure would lend itself to a typical crop.

I've attached a satellite photo that shows what I'm talking about.  As you can see, of the 124 acres, only about 20 isn't wooded.  I could see 100-150 dairy cattle, but not corn or soybeans since some of the valley never really sees sun.

And, yes... it has been described as a Uterus.

90BuickCentury said:

What do the property taxes run there? I'm guessing around $200/mo? WV has one of the lowest property taxes in the country. Seems like renting out the house would bring enough revenue to cover taxes and upkeep. More hassle, but probably less hassle than trying to deal with running a non-profit and then not having full control of the property.

Here's another idea, rent out storage space in the outbuildings to enable other GRMers to hoard excess projects?

If you leave the house vacant and properly winterize it, another option would be to just split the costs amongst the family members that use it. Should be much easier to afford with costs split multiple ways.

Final thought. Airbnb? 

The renting of buildings isn't a bad idea.  The farm hasn't been a working farm since the 70s when grandpa retired, so there is a small barn.  It has some knob and tube running to it and the way you get power is screwing in an old fuse in the chicken coop.  Then you get about 90v unless it's raining, then it just blows the fuse.  None of the outbuildings are what I would call desirable.  They keep the tractor dry and that's about it.

In reply to stuart in mn :

It's possible.  Salem University has been helpful in the past.  The town of Salem is truly dead.  Coal left decades ago and most of the natural gas/oil industry there is owned by large, outside corporations.  It seems as though most of the coal families took their meager severance/retirement pay and used it to sit on the porch of their rotting house and drink Miller Lite.  They are wonderful people, just that the economy gave up on them so they gave up on the economy.

Which brings me to one of the farm's neatest features.  Many moons ago (sometime in the early 60s) Grandpa was hiking by the river and discovered the ruins of a colonial log cabin.  He reached out to the state, the land owner, and the history department at Salem College.  The college and students funded the deconstruction of the cabin and moved it to Grandpa's farm and reconstructed it.  So the farm has a really neat piece of history on it.  I was sorta hoping that Salem College (now university) might want to have a lab setting for their forestry/ecology/biology.  The forestry students could have a real-life forest, the bio department could have two ponds, creeks, streams, and dirt to play with.

In the sketch I posted above, the cabin is near the north end of the valley right where the "Y" comes together.

STM317 said:

Some friends have some wooded acreage that they had reclassified as "protected" or something similar and it greatly reduced their property tax rate. Not sure how much your taxes are, or if that's an option for you but every little bit helps.

PA has "clean and green" for things like this.  Basically, if you're not using it as a farm, you don't have the income to pay the taxes on such a huge property, so they give you a tax break as an incentive to keep non-developed land for ecological reasons.  I know that dad did jump through some hoops when grandpa died to get it taxed as a non-functioning farm. Knowing dad, he researched every avenue.

My mind went to building some basic cabins, and setting up a trust with family as trustees to oversee renting the property and upkeep. Basic and cheep that groups could rent (think church camp or high school student group). Seems like a great property for groups looking for a nature getaway. This would have to come from the parents estate/funds of course, but shares the property while keeping family control. Tell your dad to name it after your grandpa.

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:

It would be a shame to loose that place. Maybe talk to a local attorney and a local real estate agent.

I wish you all could see it.  The house was built in 1927 and it was entirely trimmed/finished with wormy chestnut taken from the farm.  Floor-to-ceiling paneling in the living room, wainscoting in the dining room, cabinets and a buffet in the dining room, couch and chair, roll top desk, door and window casings, drop leaf table, three of the beds... all wormy chestnut.  I am sitting at a wormy chestnut secretary desk as I type this.  There is still a pile of wormy chestnut in the barn just dry rotting.

My family has a cabin set up as an LLC. Originally it was my grandfather and some of his friends, they all got old and the shares have been sold to my family(Father, Uncle, cousin). The 3 of them now rent it out on Airbnb, and people they know and they black out dates where they want to use the cabin. This has made ownership cost more reasonable for the 3 owners and actually it payed for itself entirely last year for the first time. 
 

It's a good option if you can find someone local to clean the place after the renters. 

That property screams campground to me. The pocket valley lets you control access and assuming the property line is on the ridge, you never have to worry about neighbors being in the line of sight. Is there a stream of any sort running down the valley? Color me jealous, I would be doing everything possible to move forward with that. You might contact a local Boyscout or 4H group and see if they want to set up a camping area. 

As to setting up a trust. Our family farm is owned by an LLC. All of the family members in my generation are members of the LLC. I am preparing to start the process of transferring my share to my kids. About 300 acres of the property is leased to a local farmer for enough to pay the taxes, keep the dock up, and keep the tractors running. There are also about 60 acres of pine growing that get cut every 20-30 years. Maintenance is done by all of us. We have 2-3 work weekends a year. 

I would be surprised if a town or organization would be interested in a partnership without assuming ownership or 100% control of the property through a long-term lease. They aren't going to want to make improvements and they have you change your mind. I could very well be wrong about that though. It never hurts to ask. 

Any estimate for what annual costs might be? Property taxes should be fairly easy to determine, but what are you anticipating for maintenance costs on the house and outbuildings?  In other words, how much money needs to be found to keep this place solvent?

This kinda thing would scare me much more than a garage door spring. Seems that paying $500 to sit for a few hours with your parents, sister, and a qualified lawyer would be money well spent. Before you go, have the same conversation about what you, your sister, and your parents WANT. They lay that out and have the lawyer tell you the best way to make it happen. 

You can very likely take intelligent steps to set it up right. Or you can do nothing or the wrong thing really easily and get forced into doing something you don't like. 

by the way, rent one of the buildings on the property to someone so they can live there. Have them pay nothing more than the property tax and also ask them to mow and shovel. You might be able to get a big win/win.

My only question is what weekend can I camp there? I am very familiar with this area due to all the oil and gas activity in the vicinity. 

STM317 said:

Any estimate for what annual costs might be? Property taxes should be fairly easy to determine, but what are you anticipating for maintenance costs on the house and outbuildings?  In other words, how much money needs to be found to keep this place solvent?

I will ask dad for a ballpark.  Property taxes are around $2000/yr.  I have no idea if WV separates out school, municipal, and others like PA does, or if it's just one flat tax that covers it all.

We pay the neighbors for mowing and any maintenance needed.  The neighbor is dad's childhood friend and a contractor by trade, not to mention one helluva nice guy.  I have known him since I was a little kid.  He does it for the love of the family, but he's the same age as dad, so he won't be doing it much longer either.  The little things like mowing in the summer he does for free in exchange for harvesting hay and straw from the meadow which he uses on his farm and sells the surplus.  He recently re-roofed the house and basically charged us for materials and a little money to pay one of his employees.

I'm basically saying that any cost-per-year number I come up with will not be an accurate number.  Unless I come up with another super-generous friend-of-75-years connection who is willing to do things as cheaply as Randall does, I'm looking at retail.

Dad also has the help of about 10 of his retired school teacher friends who treat it like a camp.  No money is ever exchanged, but we just got back from a 4 day trip down there which was a clean-up, clear roads, pond maintenance, and card playing trip.  Their "dues" are chipping in with the work.  In truth, it's not really enough to keep 124 acres up to spec.  They're all in their 70s and 80s so climbing mountains and timbering/clearing isn't something they do anymore.  I have plenty of friends, but they're more likely to be the kind of people that go see a show in NYC, or go to Vegas for the weekend.  My friends aren't the hunting/fishing/outdoor types.  The friends I do have in the outdoor category are already invested in other camps.

I think if I/family wants to keep the property, we won't have the serendipitous confluence of cheap/free help, so the entire burden would fall to us.  I'm looking for some middle ground between "sell it and kiss it goodbye" and "just keep it with the knowledge that the liabilities might outweigh the benefits."  I'm trying to find some way of keeping it but monetizing it in some way so that it pays for itself.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

by the way, rent one of the buildings on the property to someone so they can live there. Have them pay nothing more than the property tax and also ask them to mow and shovel. You might be able to get a big win/win.

This may work, but would require some additional structure.  The only building that is livable is the house, so when I go down there I would need a place to stay.  Extending utilities futher up the property would be pretty difficult.  I could have a well dug, but electric would be 1/4 mile worth of poles and wires (or digging and DB cable) on my dime.  I don't know if I can add a septic tank up there or not.  The road used to be maintained with gravel, but it's just mud now.

The boy scout thing wouldn't be a bad idea, but probably more active than I was hoping for.  I could do a bunch of yurts or a bunch of tent sites, but I would imagine that a kids camp might involve a level of insurance, oversight, state meddling, and liability that I was hoping to avoid.

Karacticus said:

Based on my father's experience, talk to the Nature Conservancy.  They appear to be pretty experienced in this sort of thing, and you'd likely be able to serve on an advisory board at the local or state level.

 

Will definitely do.  Thank you.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Driven5 said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

My parents have the means to pay some neighbors who happily mow the lawn, keep an eye on things, and they harvest the hay and have free access to hunting on the property.  It's a nice handshake agreement.

I have a feeling when my parents pass on, my sister and I won't be in the same financial situation to be able to pay the taxes, pay for the upkeep on 124 acres and maintenance to the house and outbuildings, so our choice would likely be to sell the property.  We really don't want to do that. 

Is there any chance your parents' estate will be sufficient to continue paying for the maintenance for a significant period of time?

Also, my grandparents' (now my uncle's) farm hasn't been farmed by the family in decades. They rent out the farmable land to other neighboring farmers. I'm not sure if this is a paper or handshake agreement, but it covers the important stuff while keeping personal use of the property (including hunting) in the family. I believe there are still the occasional talks of selling off the farmable land while keeping the house, woods, and marsh... Which would functionally be pretty much accomplish the same end result.

I don't really know any exact numbers about mom and dad's net worth.  I think the estate would pay for taxes and maintenance, the question is... if I had that money, would I personally choose to spend it on that.  Mom and dad view it as a proportional investment, but I'm not sure I would.  I was hoping to make it a trails/picnic/hiking/park thing where the family retained the property/rights, but some form of business to support the costs, have a few employees for maintenance, etc.

The land is potentially farm-able.  It would have to be livestock.  The property is a narrow valley and the only meadow is clear at the bottom.  At its widest point, the flat part at the bottom is about 200 yards wide, but it's 1/4 mile long.  Grandma and Grandpa had some luck with a garden, but I don't think the sun exposure would lend itself to a typical crop.

I've attached a satellite photo that shows what I'm talking about.  As you can see, of the 124 acres, only about 20 isn't wooded.  I could see 100-150 dairy cattle, but not corn or soybeans since some of the valley never really sees sun.

And, yes... it has been described as a Uterus.

I'm calling B.S. Curtis73..."Cherrycamp Run" centered directly below the Uterus.  How gullible do you think we are?

Joking aside, I'd look into subdeviding the property...keep the house and enough land to do the things you like, sell the rest to permently fund property tax, insurance, maintenence, etc..