Appleseed wrote: As I understand it, race pilots keep their planes trimmed up, so if they loose consciousness, the plane climbs, possibly giving them time to recover and react. They must maintain forward pressure on the stick just to stay at a level attitude.
Trimming the plane to climb will also reduce effort on the stick to make the plane climb or turn in a bank. It's an old trick--Adolf Galland did it in WW2.
flountown wrote: So just for us non-aviation folk, we can guess that the trim tab is the rear section of the tail wing. Now what I don't understand is that the disappearance of such would cause a sudden upward climb. In my logic, a rear wing should be fairly neutral in terms of lift, as I imagine the forward wings would handle that. Shouldn't a failure of such a small piece; in my non-aviating mind, that looks extremely insignificant, only disturb a small amount of elevation control, not causing a catastrophic event? Again, I am approaching this from a very simple view, and only wish to have my knowledge expanded, so be gentle.
Flountown, I asked a friend of mine that flies business jets that very question yesterday. He said that, while small, the trim tabs are very powerful and the forces they generate are physically impossible at high speed. One of the earlier posters said they were like power steering for your car, I think that's a bit inaccurate. The trim tabs, as I understand them, provide fine to very fine adjustments to the way the aircraft handles. This would make them more like adjustable shocks in automotive parlance. You're coarse direction inputs are handled by the rudder (vertical tail piece that moves in horizontal), elvevators (horizontal tail pieces that move in the vertical-which is were the trim tab that fell off is located) and the ailerons in the wings (help the aircraft to turn). The trim tabs allow the pilot dial in his aircraft, making it more stable and easier to fly (or in the case of stunt and fighter pilots, more unstable allowing for some crazy ass stunts and maneuvers). While losing a shock wouldn't cause a catastrophic failure in a car, losing such a piece on an aircraft could be and in this case was, catastrophic. Bear in mind that this opinion is formed by years of reading books about aircraft and not actually flying them. Perhaps one of the real pilots here could explain it better.
On trim tabs: imagine that as your car sped up, it started pulling more and more to the right, so at 100mph you've got to have the wheel completely turned. So you have a device that turns the steering column for you. If that failed...That's about what happens to an aircraft in flight. The concept of "neutral" is impossible when you've got airflow changes (via angle of attack or airspeed) happening so often.
Trim tabs are way more important than adjustable shocks are on a car, it's not an "easier" thing... On our jets, we have a emergency procedure for something called "runaway stab (stabilizer) trim." If the stab trim tab goes to full deflection on takeoff, and nothing is done, both pilots pushing down on the yokes couldn't prevent the plane from nosing up, stalling, and crashing into the ground. From what I understand, runaway stab trim is a potential disaster in just about every aircraft, and there's loads of safeguards against it (we have 3).
A poorly trimmed aircraft is difficult to fly. An untrimmed aircraft is a lawn dart.
More video has been released:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2011/09/17/nr-nv-crash-tail-tab.cnn
CNN found the source of a YouTube entry I had noted in a previous post.
Wow, that's tragic. Similar fatalities during auto races caused racing to be banned in some countries, let's hope air races and air shows aren't outlawed. I question using rare warbirds for these activities, it's not like a rare old race car that can be rebuilt, this plane is gone forever.
Osterkraut wrote: Trim tabs are way more important than adjustable shocks are on a car, it's not an "easier" thing... On our jets, we have a emergency procedure for something called "runaway stab (stabilizer) trim." If the stab trim tab goes to full deflection on takeoff, and nothing is done, both pilots pushing down on the yokes couldn't prevent the plane from nosing up, stalling, and crashing into the ground. From what I understand, runaway stab trim is a potential disaster in just about every aircraft, and there's loads of safeguards against it (we have 3). A poorly trimmed aircraft is difficult to fly. An untrimmed aircraft is a lawn dart.
To add to this explanation here is a quote form another forum I frequent by a pilot.
For those that don't know, the trim tab is not a primary flight control, its purpose is to reduce the stick forces the pilot has to deal with. As an airplane goes faster it creates more lift, so the pilot must push forward on the stick (elevator goes down) to reduce the angle-of-attack so it does not climb. The trim tab is a secondary control that moves up (relative to the elevator) to push back down on the elevator itself, reducing the pilot's pitch stick forces. The pilot has a separate manual control to adjust the position of the trim tab. The sudden loss of a trim tab will cause a sudden change in stick forces causing the airplane to suddenly pitch up if not manually opposed. I have to imagine as these speeds these forces are incredible. And with the asymmetrical loss of the trim tab (only the left side failed?) it could cause a rolling moment to the right.
loosecannon wrote: Wow, that's tragic. Similar fatalities during auto races caused racing to be banned in some countries, let's hope air races and air shows aren't outlawed. I question using rare warbirds for these activities, it's not like a rare old race car that can be rebuilt, this plane is gone forever.
Actually, with many of these planes, especially P-51's, all you really need is the data plate (like a VIN tag) to rebuild the plane legally. Obviously a lot spare parts helps, but many of the part on these plane, especially race plane, are custom made and this plane is probably far more historically significant as a race plane then its original stock form. Look at the skin on that plane, ridiculously smooth, in stock form, it is quite bumpy.
There is a saying about the FAA, that their rules "are written in blood". Many time new regulations are the result of people dieing, this is obviously one of these cases.
I cannot really guess what the FAA might say, but I suspect they will at least want to move the course further away from the crowd. Also, I would suspect there would be some sort of strong recommendation about the strength of trim tabs (this is something that the pilot will likely not need to be told, I am sure it is in everyone's plan)
The news keeps bringing up how dangerous the races have been and the number of people killed. But the fact of the matter is, all those people (until now) have been pilots, and they are FULLY AWARE of the dangers involved, so I think that point is very mute. Also there are other, far less extreme seeming sports that are far more deadly. One that I know of (that you wouldn't suspect) is 3 day eventing (the horse steeple chase portion has caused many deaths).
loosecannon wrote: Wow, that's tragic. Similar fatalities during auto races caused racing to be banned in some countries, let's hope air races and air shows aren't outlawed. I question using rare warbirds for these activities, it's not like a rare old race car that can be rebuilt, this plane is gone forever.
My impression is that a lot of the warbirds being used for air racing started out being used for air racing in the late 40s, when they were cheap surplus military aircraft rather than valuable antiques.
--Ian
You could get a flyable P-51 with full tanks of 115/145 AVgas for $500. People bought them just for the fuel.
I have a reproduction F-51 (shows you the era of the original printing) pilot's manual. One of the appendices lists surplus prices for the last Mustangs stricken from service in 1957--typical prices were less than a new Thunderbird of the same year.
Jack Roush had flown with and was good friend of pilot who crashed in Reno...
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/cup-jack-roush-had-connection-with-pilot-killed-in-air-races-in-reno/
Check this sh#$t out:
http://www.renoairshowcrashattorney.com/?gclid=CPHGi_i7qasCFSkbQgodOUsS1g
All I can say is WOW, sometimes I am ashamed to live in this country (of course, I am sure many other countries are as bad this way).
After seeing this, I am suspecting what will kill the air races will likely be insurance costs, they will almost certainly skyrocket.
In reply to aircooled:
it was bound to happen wasn't it
Generally the Air Race fans are very loyal and supportive of the sport.
We can only hope they all give a giant F YOU! to this A-hole.
They even made a mobile site..
Epic Fail for the ambulence chaser right off the bat; it was an Air RACE not an Air Show. I agree with aircooled--
aircooled wrote: Check this sh#$t out: http://www.renoairshowcrashattorney.com/?gclid=CPHGi_i7qasCFSkbQgodOUsS1g All I can say is WOW, sometimes I am ashamed to live in this country (of course, I am sure many other countries are as bad this way). After seeing this, I am suspecting what will kill the air races will likely be insurance costs, they will almost certainly skyrocket.
How does he live with himself…what a tool, what a giant female hygiene implement.
RX Reven' wrote:aircooled wrote: Check this sh#$t out: http://www.renoairshowcrashattorney.com/?gclid=CPHGi_i7qasCFSkbQgodOUsS1g All I can say is WOW, sometimes I am ashamed to live in this country (of course, I am sure many other countries are as bad this way). After seeing this, I am suspecting what will kill the air races will likely be insurance costs, they will almost certainly skyrocket.How does he live with himself…what a tool, what a giant female hygiene implement.
Hehehehee.... Having fun with the sleazeball's contact form... Jerkoff!
aircooled wrote: Check this sh#$t out: http://www.renoairshowcrashattorney.com/?gclid=CPHGi_i7qasCFSkbQgodOUsS1g All I can say is WOW, sometimes I am ashamed to live in this country (of course, I am sure many other countries are as bad this way). After seeing this, I am suspecting what will kill the air races will likely be insurance costs, they will almost certainly skyrocket.
What a berkeleying Bob Costas.
as screwed up as the air show lawyer chasing death is , it is really a brilliant idea
... and in non-lawyer related news, there seem to be mumblings in the local newspapers re the future of the air races. So far it seems that said mumblings are being reported as asides in interviews with victims of the crash, but still.
I hope they just stay mumblings but in the current "panic early, panic often" climate I'm not holding my breath.
RX Reven' wrote:aircooled wrote: Check this sh#$t out: http://www.renoairshowcrashattorney.com/?gclid=CPHGi_i7qasCFSkbQgodOUsS1gHow does he live with himself…what a tool, what a giant female hygiene implement.
Ohh, I don't know, I imagine the multiple Porsches, nice houses, expensive suits, big gold watches, and readily-available escort service let him sleep pretty comfortably.
A few thoughts on this Not super familiar with the races but I did see a different video from farther away that shows the plane pull out of the race and basically do a full loop into the ground. Definately supports the missing trim tab to full up elevator theory.
After seeing the course layout why do they put the grandstands at the outside of the fastest turn on the course? Isn't that just begging for a plane to overshoot the turn and do something like this? Maybe I'm thinking of this to much like a Car but it would more likely that a plane would fail to turn than overturn. On a different forum It was explained that procedure is at first sign of problem fly straight and gain altitude.. If your mid turn on that turn wouldn't that point you at the spectators? It would seem alot more safe to orient the course so the spectators are either on the straights at the end of the straight at the entry to the turn where the plane is theoretically at it's lowest load and therefore least likely to have an issue while potentially aimed at the crowd. Or put them on the inside of the course. I was pretty sure that's why Airshows oriented their schenanigans along the flightline not over the crowd.
I've recieved several first hand accounts that I will share. These are from pilots that were at the race
1. I’ve witnessed more than a few fatal accidents at Reno Air Races in the 20 years I attended the event. It is a dangerous sport and those that participate are aware and accept it. I don’t know of, and have not heard of, any spectators ever being injured in the forty seven years (plus or minus) since the first race at Sky Ranch in 1964 that resulted from an aviation related accident during a race. That’s a pretty good record. Hope the FAA doesn’t so a knee jerk over-reaction. I did notice in one of the photographs posted on line the trim tab on the left elevator appeared to be missing. (See attachment) If that be the case the load on the controls at that speed must have been huge. It reminded me of the crash in front of the grandstands a few years back in a formula race. The pilots name escapes me at present but he was from Hickory Mississippi. The effect was similar, and due to a mechanical control failure, to what you just spelled out, violent rocking up and down in pitch and right into the ground by the home pylon. I’m sure the proponents of shutting down the racing there will have a field day over this one. My thoughts go out to the families and all involved in this terrible loss.
2. Now that some of the smoke has cleared here in Reno, I’ll just say that the sight of that aircraft rolling up and over our chalet was one of the most chilling sights I have ever seen in 44 years of aviation. His impact site was about 600 feet east of our area and just the other side of the VIP tent. It shook the ground and you could feel the shock wave even where we were. We roughly calculated that if the sequence of events happened one second earlier at his speed, he would have come down about 100 feet south of our tent. We and everyone east of us is very thankful for that second. On the issue of what I think happened. With the photos now confirming that he likely lost a trim tab, the resulting G force of his pull up may have incapacitated him to the point that he may not have had any time to recover. See the photos of the aircraft less than ½ second before impact. There is no helmet or head in the glass of the cockpit, meaning that he was below the level of the glare shield. I did not time it, but from the time of the pull up to impact was about 5 seconds. I talked with two people that were less than 100 feet from the impact and both said that they could see it happening, but could not even move their feet prior to impact. They just had time to hit the deck. The mood at RARA headquarters this afternoon was drawn back, but they have done an exemplary job of handling this tragedy and the professional attitude prevailing was one we all understand as aviators. Everyone accepted this accident with the attitude that aviation can be hazardous and these events naturally ramp up the risk factor. While somewhat somber, the mood was not morbid. I believe the races will go on next year, as does everyone that we talked to on their staff. TAS is planning to return next year.
I am still hoping to attend those air races someday. While I do lots of things that could result in my death (skydiving, rock climbing, etc) I feel that the benefits outweigh the risks.
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