Riots in Ferguson

Beer Baron wrote:

danvan wrote: It makes me sick to think a armed officer can not control a teenager with out killing him.

It is a lot more difficult to physically control someone than to seriously injure or kill them (people can slip out of joint locks, but wounds stay wounded). It is doubly hard to control someone who is 40% larger than you. It is pretty nearly impossible to defend yourself hand-to-hand when you are seated inside a car, and they are outside of it.

I love this. "A teenager". He was a grown ass man. 6'4", 290lbs. Show me an officer that is going to be able to control a pissed off, amped up 290lb man WHILE SITTING IN YOUR CAR.

danvan wrote: Wow all I want is to live I a country where the police are held to the same rules as the rest of the population. Here in Canada the only way to get away with killing a unarmed person is to be a cop.

Not sure about Canada, but in the States we have a self-defense concept called disparity of force that says if you're being attacked by a much larger assailant, or multiple assailants, and you have a reasonable fear for your life, you can use deadly force to defend yourself. Applies to civilians and cops alike.

Only way I'm controlling someone that size while seated in my car is if my car is moving and I am using it as a batterimg ram.

mndsm wrote: Only way I'm controlling someone that size while seated in my car is if my car is moving and I am using it as a batterimg ram.

Or with the 11 rounds of 230-gr .45ACP in my Taurus. When you've got 4" and 80lbs on me plus the mobility and leverage of being outside the car.... Sorry. I value MY life. Not his. Once you take on the role of aggressor, you've given up your rights. To life. To safety etc.

The_Jed wrote: For every alteration you hear about that involves a firearm there are dozens, if not hundreds, of hand-to-hand confrontations that don't make the news. The average cop is most definitely not a 98 lb weakling, nor afraid to knuckle up.

Yup.. My cousin is 254 lbs 6' 3" 14% body fat and is a regionally ranked MMA fighter.. He has been on the force 10 years and said he rarely draws his gun when confronting someone. They're usually so scared that the guy in front of them has a crooked nose and cauliflower ear.

Danvan, what has the media up on Canada been telling you about this incident? Here is what happened: Large thug man robs store, walks down the middle of the street blocking traffic. Cop tells him to walk on the sidewalk. Radio reports store robbed. Cop tries to stop thug. Thug punches cop through car door window, breaking cops facial bones. Fight ensues over cop's gun. Thug gets shot. Thug backs off. Cop gets out of car and pursues thug, ordering him to stop. Thug turns and charges cop. Cop shoots and kills thug. At no point did the thug raise his hands and say "don't shoot." Those are the facts.

Now, the local po-po screwed up in leaving the thug laying in the street for 4 hours while they investigated. That caused "issues" with perception of the local gangsta community where this happened. Local gangsta community riots. Po-po take out the Obama-supplied machine guns and MRAPs to threaten the local community. Looks bad. National and international communist and various other leftist organizations such as the current Department of Justice jump on the bandwagon to try to stir up racial violence, playing the black community like a fiddle.

That's what happened. What are you seeing on Canada? Why would you think that a cop would just go shoot an "unarmed teenager?"

In Canada we are not allowed to walk around armed, if you kill someone who is robbing your house you will go to jail. There was a time when the RCMP was respected but that has changed now, my kids don't respect the cops but they do fear them, when you look at the way they dress for duty now I think that's what they are going for.

You break into my house, with 3 dogs, as secluded as we are? You aint there for the TV. I'm shooting first, asking questions later. If you're willing to risk getting your ass chewed up by a large German shephard and two other dogs you aren't in your right mind and you're bound and determined to do something I am not going to like or live through.

I value my family and myself's lives over those of an intruder. You break into my house? You're screwed.

But I still see that Dan hasn't answered the questions asked.

Don't feed the troll. Although I don't watch much TV, there has been little to no coverage on the radio that I've heard.

I stopped watching all the network news stations. I watch local TV for weather, sports and local news. That's it anymore.

Zomby Woof wrote: Don't feed the troll. Although I don't watch much TV, there has been little to no coverage on the radio that I've heard.

This, danvan is just making a horrible attempt at trolling.

Dr. Hess wrote: National and international communist and various other leftist organizations such as the current Department of Justice jump on the bandwagon to try to stir up racial violence, playing the black community like a fiddle.

Tinfoil overload!

Bobzilla wrote:

mndsm wrote: Only way I'm controlling someone that size while seated in my car is if my car is moving and I am using it as a batterimg ram.

Or with the 11 rounds of 230-gr .45ACP in my Taurus. When you've got 4" and 80lbs on me plus the mobility and leverage of being outside the car.... Sorry. I value MY life. Not his. Once you take on the role of aggressor, you've given up your rights. To life. To safety etc.

That too. The minute you attack me like that, I'm going for broke. The general consensus is don't berkeley with a guy that is wearing a belt full berkeley you up stuff, wearing a badge that says he gets to use it to berkeley it up, is next to a radio that has other guys with berkeley you up stuff on the other end, and they've all been trained in the fine art of berkeleying you up with it.

I think the bottom line here is, people don't get the police's job. I don't pretend to know how hard it is, but if I had to deal with 10% of what they deal with in disrespect every day, I'd probably be looking to unload a clip of hollow points into someone too. The simple fact of the matter is society as a whole has created their own hole. People have decided they're entitled to be dicks whenever they can and do so with moral impunity. Eventually even Mr. Rogers will pop a cap in your ass if you berate him long enough. Combine that with the fact that society has caught on that being a a cop is a pain in the ass, and you get a situation where only bullies and jackasses apply to carry guns. Simply put, society has created this monster themselves. I would bet you any car in my driveway that mikey was brought up on a healthy diet of berkeley tha police. It'll never be brought to light that it was, but I'd put a title on it. Even if his parents didn't do so directly, the people and culture he associated with did. Obviously he had a lot of respect for a shopkeep that had a pile of smokables that he wanted.

The unfortunate thing is, this whole thing is buried under a healthy pile of "woe is the black man" salad. If I'd chosen to hop out of the car and put the whoopin' on officer wonton (he apparent has earned this name locally) when he wanted to jam me up for my window tint, I'd have had him by about the same ratio that mike did over officer Wilson. You know what would have happened? At the very least, I would have gotten a rectal exam with a mag lite. At worst, my kid would be celebrating Xmas at my grave. What they would not be reporting is how an unarmed white man attempted to bash a cops face in. They'd report that crazy attempted to berkeley with the law and the law won.

Dr. Hess wrote: ...breaking cops facial bones... ...Those are the facts....

I am pretty sure that is not a fact.

Police-officer-shot-Michael-Brown-did-NOT-suffer-broken-eye-socket-did-hospital-swollen-face-deadly-altercation

The officer did show signs of assault, but it was not sever "looking" as implied above.

Let's be fair, this situation was not handled the best by the officer. In the least, the lone officer, backing his car in front of the very large subject and effectively trapping himself in the car was clearly not a great idea.

Question: (I am sure this was answered somewhere) What was the justification for shooting a fleeing subject? I have heard shooting at fleeing subjects, not know to be armed, is generally a no no. Was it the attempt to take the gun?

(As indicated, this is not an ideal situation, but clearly not an example of "killing the black man", or "abusive police" as the protesters seem to think. Plenty of better examples of that.)

He wasn't shot in the back. He was shot in the front, not fleeing, charging. The broken facial bones was in the early reporting. If that has changed, OK, but it still doesn't change the fact the thug attacked a cop. I have no great love for cops, but assaulting one is never a good idea, unless you want to get killed.

Let me get this straight, Wilson pumps a round into Brown at the car when he tries to take his gun, Brown runs away, Wilson gives chase, and Brown doubles back and charges a cop with a gun pointed at his head?

If that's what happened, well, I don't blame the guy for the second volley of shots, but I don't really find that to be totally believable. I don't think Wilson is a stone cold murderer, but I do think he may have made a mistake in the foot pursuit.

Regardless, people are angry. It's just the last straw type deal after a string of highly publicized incidents. It doesn't help when the incidents keep occurring week after week, and the media is eating it up. I don't think it'd be as big of a nightmare as it is if these young men were getting gunned down in a gunfight, but most of them were unarmed, some of them children.

I can see both sides, and there's a lot of people at fault.

danvan wrote: In Canada we are not allowed to walk around armed, if you kill someone who is robbing your house you will go to jail.

I would make a lousy Canadian. I cannot skate.

I'm sure Canada will get over it.

Dr. Hess wrote: I have no great love for cops, but assaulting one is never a good idea, unless you want to get killed.

And this, my friends, is the moral of the story. Don't beat on a cop and grab for his gun if you don't want to get yourself shot/killed.

Wanderer wrote: I can see both sides, and there's a lot of people at fault.

Unfortunately, most of those people are skating under the radar.

Wanderer wrote: Let me get this straight, Wilson pumps a round into Brown at the car when he tries to take his gun, Brown runs away, Wilson gives chase, and Brown doubles back and charges a cop with a gun pointed at his head? If that's what happened, well, I don't blame the guy for the second volley of shots, but I don't really find that to be totally believable. I don't think Wilson is a stone cold murderer, but I do think he may have made a mistake in the foot pursuit.

Exactly, these are the things that don't make sense to me - and WIlson chasing after Brown without calling for backup, that's almost as strange. These seem like the kind of questions worth going to trial over. But instead it's "nope, all is well, nothing to see here, move along."

In reply to Wanderer:

I said this early on once the autopsy reports first came out, the ballistics match up with a perp charging the officer and falling to the ground. People want to bitch about the "Well, he was shot twice in the head".....No E36 M3, have you ever fallen down when running? Please, do tell where your head goes. Only 1 or 2 non-fatal shots were at close range with gsr.

This is just another case of refusing to take responsibility for ones actions and instead blame everyone else.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Wanderer wrote: Let me get this straight, Wilson pumps a round into Brown at the car when he tries to take his gun, Brown runs away, Wilson gives chase, and Brown doubles back and charges a cop with a gun pointed at his head? If that's what happened, well, I don't blame the guy for the second volley of shots, but I don't really find that to be totally believable. I don't think Wilson is a stone cold murderer, but I do think he may have made a mistake in the foot pursuit.

Exactly, these are the things that don't make sense to me - and WIlson chasing after Brown without calling for backup, that's almost as strange. These seem like the kind of questions worth going to trial over. But instead it's "nope, all is well, nothing to see here, move along."

Wilson did call for backup and reported shots fired before getting out of the car to give chase to Brown. As I understand, it is not abnormal for police to continue to pursue a suspect while waiting for help to arrive.

Dr. Hess wrote: He wasn't shot in the back. He was shot in the front, not fleeing, charging. The broken facial bones was in the early reporting. If that has changed, OK, but it still doesn't change the fact the thug attacked a cop. I have no great love for cops, but assaulting one is never a good idea, unless you want to get killed.

No, not shot in the back. Shooting at him as he was fleeing.

During the investigation at the scene, Detective [redacted] also noted and directed his attention to the apartment building known and numbered as 2960 Canfield Drive. Detective [redacted] observed this building's exterior consisted of brick and vinyl siding. On the north side of this building, was damage consistent with having been struck by a projectile. The damage was to the vinyl siding above the easternmost window on the first level. Detectives from the Saint Louis County Police Department's Crime Scene Unit attempted to extract a possible projectile from the building but were unable to do so due to the construction of the building and the significant structural damage that would have been required to remove an item. The interior of the building was checked and there was no penetration to the interior of the apartment.

That building (as can be seen here: diagram ) is to the rear of the vehicle. Possible it was shot from within the car? Possible, but it would clearly need to be looked into more (I suspect if it went through the door first the ballistics would show that).

Not a certainty that he shot at him while fleeing, but it's certainly a possibility (and something that the officer would wisely deny).

In reply to GameboyRMH:

Trial for what? Those types of questions will be asked at the impending sue happy civil court where the "parents" that didn't even raise him hope to get rich.

Beer Baron wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

Wanderer wrote: Let me get this straight, Wilson pumps a round into Brown at the car when he tries to take his gun, Brown runs away, Wilson gives chase, and Brown doubles back and charges a cop with a gun pointed at his head? If that's what happened, well, I don't blame the guy for the second volley of shots, but I don't really find that to be totally believable. I don't think Wilson is a stone cold murderer, but I do think he may have made a mistake in the foot pursuit.

Exactly, these are the things that don't make sense to me - and WIlson chasing after Brown without calling for backup, that's almost as strange. These seem like the kind of questions worth going to trial over. But instead it's "nope, all is well, nothing to see here, move along."

Wilson did call for backup and reported shots fired before getting out of the car to give chase to Brown. As I understand, it is not abnormal for police to continue to pursue a suspect while waiting for help to arrive.

Oh, well my mistake then, didn't know that. I know it's normal to pursue while waiting for backup, but I thought he hadn't called for any.