What I've been reading, in exchange for East Germany (anyone remember that place?) folding back into West Germany to recreate Germany, the US agreed to no NATO expansion of the former east block countries, like, say, now NATO member Poland. The US didn't keep it's side of the bargain. Also, don't forget the gas pipeline that Qatar wants to run through Ukraine and Syria to sell gas to Europe. It's a mess.
Will
SuperDork
8/29/14 9:20 a.m.
kazoospec wrote:
In reply to Will:
Totally agree that its troubling. But what I'm saying is, I don't think they are nostalgic for Communism so much as they are nostalgic to be feared/respected/powerful in the world order.
I agree completely. But in a way, that lack of concern for who and what provides/comes with that world influence is what's most troubling. Say what you will about the tenets of Soviet communism, dude, at least it's an ethos.
They want a strongman, and their nostalgia for Stalin says they'll accept some pretty awful things in return.
Things are getting interesting that is for sure. If it does lead to WW3 wonder if this one will see fighting on our continent? The world has become a much smaller place than it was back in the early 20th century. I could see some sort of attack on US soil if we get involved. Not troop based at first. No first they would take out infrastructure. Could be done with cyber attacks, EMP, bio weapons of some sort, the use of sleepers that have been coming into the country for years, doubt nukes would be used on the surface to many resources get destroyed and contaminated (though it would have one hell of a psychological effect on the rest of the world), and god knows what they have in satellites orbiting this little blue marble. Once weakened the easiest way in is through the south at the Mexican border. Deals would be made to give back land to Mexico for access through their country. South American countries would more than likely side against us for the most part in this scenario. The SW would be a mess. Canadians would more than likely join our side and try to help keep the US from falling. This would keep both nations busy while things play out in Europe. China would start taking out Japan and other Asian countries at will as they would no longer be protected by us because we are busy taking care of ourselves. If done right our troops that are already deployed would not be able to return to the US and would lack support services they are use to. There would also of course be even more unrest in the Middle East because you know oil.
Dr. Hess wrote:
What I've been reading, in exchange for East Germany (anyone remember that place?) folding back into West Germany to recreate Germany, the US agreed to no NATO expansion of the former east block countries, like, say, now NATO member Poland. The US didn't keep it's side of the bargain. Also, don't forget the gas pipeline that Qatar wants to run through Ukraine and Syria to sell gas to Europe. It's a mess.
This is entirely plausible.. but agreements not written on paper.. aren't really agreements.
Those on paper aren't either.
rebelgtp wrote:
[WW3 scenario]
Are you interested in writing books? You're like Tom Clancy mixed with Masamune Shirow 
In reply to GameboyRMH:
I have thought about it. Actually have thought about it using that scenario however every time I start to get deeper into that particular idea I end up freaking myself out.
Hell I described a slightly more in depth version of that to a friend of mine and he just sat there with a deer caught in the headlights look for about an hour.
rotard
Dork
8/29/14 10:19 a.m.
rebelgtp wrote:
Things are getting interesting that is for sure. If it does lead to WW3 wonder if this one will see fighting on our continent? The world has become a much smaller place than it was back in the early 20th century. I could see some sort of attack on US soil if we get involved. Not troop based at first. No first they would take out infrastructure. Could be done with cyber attacks, EMP, bio weapons of some sort, the use of sleepers that have been coming into the country for years, doubt nukes would be used on the surface to many resources get destroyed and contaminated (though it would have one hell of a psychological effect on the rest of the world), and god knows what they have in satellites orbiting this little blue marble. Once weakened the easiest way in is through the south at the Mexican border. Deals would be made to give back land to Mexico for access through their country. South American countries would more than likely side against us for the most part in this scenario. The SW would be a mess. Canadians would more than likely join our side and try to help keep the US from falling. This would keep both nations busy while things play out in Europe. China would start taking out Japan and other Asian countries at will as they would no longer be protected by us because we are busy taking care of ourselves. If done right our troops that are already deployed would not be able to return to the US and would lack support services they are use to. There would also of course be even more unrest in the Middle East because you know oil.
We would probably start nuking people before that happened.
In reply to rebelgtp:
Are you now or have you ever been associated in any way with the Russian government???
In reply to Nick_Comstock:
No...However I use to read and speak Russian . That actually might be a skill to brush up on.
mndsm
MegaDork
8/29/14 10:47 a.m.
I for one welcome our new overlords..... I mean. Comrades
Then there is this:
Ukraine to seek Nato membership, says PM Yatsenyuk
Uh oh...
(adding someone to NATO while they are in the MIDDLE of a revolt / invasion does seem unlikely though... well, I would hope)
rebelgtp wrote:
Things are getting interesting that is for sure. If it does lead to WW3 wonder if this one will see fighting on our continent? The world has become a much smaller place ... ...There would also of course be even more unrest in the Middle East because you know oil.
All interesting, but I think maybe a bit "old school" in the global conflict thinking (very cold war 80's). One thing you need to consider is the economics. That runs a LOT of what the world does now. E.g. China depends a LOT on other countries (especially the US) buying their crap. Going around invading places would likely put a huge stopper in that.
Germany is not very interested in pressuring Russia because they get most of their natural gas from them.
Russia wants to "save it's people" in Ukraine, the industry of western Ukraine... well... oops, do we get that also? OK, if we must. 
aircooled said:
(very cold war 80's).
well that is when I grew up lol.
I agree completely that today the economy drives things in a completely different manner than it did before. However who knows what sort of economy could shake out of such a conflict. Lets face it war is "good for business" in many ways so long as you have the ability to produce weapons and gear. Even better if you are supplying those weapons and gear to other countries.
Will
SuperDork
8/29/14 1:20 p.m.
rebelgtp wrote:
John Milius was here
I like a good Red Dawn scenario as much as anyone, but the logistics of anyone invading the US make it pretty near impossible. Even if they come through Mexico, they have to get their stuff across the ocean, and there's no one on Earth except us who can project that kind of power against serious opposition.
You can't move that much stuff and people with airplanes--you'd have to do it by ship, and let's face it, we can effectively own both oceans. Our subs and carriers would have a field day.
Edit: and even if somehow an invading army did get here in force, there's that whole "rifle behind every blade of grass" thing.
Will wrote:
rebelgtp wrote:
John Milius was here
I like a good Red Dawn scenario as much as anyone, but the logistics of anyone invading the US make it pretty near impossible. Even if they come through Mexico, they have to get their stuff across the ocean, and there's no one on Earth except us who can project that kind of power against serious opposition.
You can't move that much stuff and people with airplanes--you'd have to do it by ship, and let's face it, we can effectively own both oceans. Our subs and carriers would have a field day.
Edit: and even if somehow an invading army did get here in force, there's that whole "rifle behind every blade of grass" thing.
More like "there's 10 rifles behind every blade of grass...."
T.J.
PowerDork
8/29/14 2:05 p.m.
Our government does not fear armed invaders. In fact, they welcomes them at the southern border. What our government fears is us, just look at what they have been preparing for over the last decade or so.
mndsm
MegaDork
8/29/14 2:20 p.m.
A war on the US soil would be very bad for the government. People would be like "Holy E36 M3, we band together, we can WRECK this place!" and they'd turn on the current political system immediately. Only reason a lot of it works now is fear and complacency.
Yeah, while economics makes conflict in Europe more and more likely. (Maybe if Ebola can really get rolling and thin both sides things will settle down)
I can't see any viable way for a foreign force to invade mainland USA. Just because we don't use our nifty military toys doesn't mean we can't. :-)
yamaha
UltimaDork
8/29/14 3:20 p.m.
Dr. Hess wrote:
What I've been reading, in exchange for East Germany (anyone remember that place?) folding back into West Germany to recreate Germany, the US agreed to no NATO expansion of the former east block countries, like, say, now NATO member Poland. The US didn't keep it's side of the bargain. Also, don't forget the gas pipeline that Qatar wants to run through Ukraine and Syria to sell gas to Europe. It's a mess.
Yes yes, about the same as the "Give up your nukes and we'll respect your borders" crap that Ukraine went through......
yamaha
UltimaDork
8/29/14 3:26 p.m.
In reply to Will:
The subs are the wildcard.......surface ships would be easy targets to a simple strategy of numerical advantage.
rebelgtp wrote:
In reply to GameboyRMH:
I have thought about it. Actually have thought about it using that scenario however every time I start to get deeper into that particular idea I end up freaking myself out.
Hell I described a slightly more in depth version of that to a friend of mine and he just sat there with a deer caught in the headlights look for about an hour.
It would make an interesting story but I don't think it would happen quite like that IRL. As Masamune likes to do, you've equalized the US vs. everyone else a bit to keep things interesting. The biggest example is that if someone actually launched a satellite launcher of nukes / "rods from god", the US would know about it quickly and take it out one way or another (probably with a controlled de-orbit using a black project space drone).
In reply to GameboyRMH:
Yeah there would have to be some sort of equalizing force to allow a successful attack on the US. Hell get us fighting against each hard enough that might do it. But yeah very hard to bring us down to level.
I'm glad this thread has devolved a bit into goofy invasion scenarios, because the blistering ignorance spewed in a few places on the last two pages nearly cauzed me a seizure.
Russia has invaded Ukraine. A while ago. The most insane part is they're still denying it to our faces as if we couldn't tell. And no, the US didn't spark it off through some Clancy-esque covert op or any of that asinine nonsense. The people were tired of a corrupt government that was in Putin's pocket, they protested (if you know nothing about the Orange Revolution, do some reading. Short version: Ukrainians elected a western-friendly leader, Russia poisoned him, he survived. Next elections were less than transparent and brought in Yanukovic). They were protesting in the hundreds of thousands, for weeks. WEEKS. It started before the Olympics and continued until after the Olympics was over. Then the federal Ukrainian police cracked down old Eastern Bloc style and began murdering protestors. People fight back, Spetsnaz arrive, hell breaks loose.
If you are getting your information about this from American news sources on either side of the aisle, you have no damn clue what is really going on over there.
